GRAMM MOVES TO SELL OUT U.S.

cuerno de chivo:

"IMO everyone is pretty much providing racist stereotypes as opposed to facts."


What nonsence!

I too have seen what the silent invasion of Mexican illegals has done to this country. Pat Buchanan was right, we need to seal the borders or we are all in deep kimchee.

People like you want to turn this into a racial issue, to avoid talking about the plain truth that these people are pulling this country down, just like they did in Mexico.
 
Ok, cuerno lets look at my post. First of all I am a Texan and an Aggie, thats a fact. I am also a supporter of Gramm, thats a fact. The next sentence is an opinion. In Texas we do provide free medical care and education to illegal aliens, that is a fact. They do not pay income or ss tax, yes thats another fact. They do pay sales and property tax, yet another fact. Being in Houston construction business I know full well the actual labor situation here and throughout Texas and that is a fact. And the fact is they do send a lot of money back to Mexico, thats why they live 8 to 12 in a two bedroom apartment. That is also a fact. There was a similiar program in the early 80's, I helped a fellow from Costa Rica get legal through that amnesty program, also a fact. My thought on Gramm's reasons is my conjecture only. And although they are hard working the fact is that the AIDS problem in the Hispanic areas of Houston is estimated to have exceeded 25% in last year. And yes our prisons are overcrowded do in large part to the illegal alien problem. So where is the racist remark?
I say all this because to many people today are unwilling to deal with the hard facts and thus paint all those who they disagree with as being racist or intolerant. These are hard issues to debate, but denying facts just because you don't like them doesn't solve anything at all.
 
"so-called hard working immigrants, I had two fairly major construction jobs done on my residence last year. Much of the work was crap and had to be redone. Most of the work crew was Latino. We could not even tell them they where screwing up because of the language barrier."

"not concerned about issues of cultural integrity--small matters like linguistic commonality, fundamental Anglo-American business practices and ethics, rights for women, and the U.S. Constitution, written in English and interpreted in English--or the validation of lawlessness or the usurpation of public monies intended for tax-paying American citizens,"

"assimilated"

"that dumps on us millions of their least desirable citizens"

"Hey, crash the borders and lay low. Those saps will grant you amnesty eventually. You don't have to go through all that "know the Constitution and American History crap". And, here's a bennie - you can eventually bring the rest of your relatives here and get some of them on Social Security.

Can't read/write English? No problem, you can always stay in the barrio, never learn the language and STILL live the American lifestyle. Pay taxes? Why? Just claim eight people on your W-4 even if you're only 18 - nobody checks. Better yet, if you're an odd-jobs guy or gardener, ask to be paid in cash - that's like a 30% pay raise.

And remember, once you get your drivers license, you can vote! Just remember to vote for the Donkey People - they will always take care of you if you vote for them."

JMHO, but ALOT of it sounds like pure stereotype. Maybe my experience with illegals is just different. But I find them much better 'citizens' in terms of law abiding, politeness, and hard work.
 
Peyote Jack asks:
Is this a reciprocal arrangement? I might want to take advantage of the warm weather and lower cost of living in Mexico. Can I just head south and apply for work?

This also makes a mockery of those who immigrate "the old fashioned way" and those who immigrate from other countries. If you're French or Russian, do you get the same deal? Is that fair?

I don't know about this deal Gramm is involved with, but I heard that newly-elected Mexican President Vincente Fox recently proposed completely opening borders between Mexico, U.S., and Canada. Sounded pretty reciprocal to me. But the U.S. and Candadian leaders were reportedly "cool" to the proposal.

Numerous claims have been made about illegal immigrants' tax payments. The only studies I've seen, and I admit they are more than 10 years old, indicate that illegals pay income taxes in roughly the same proportion that poor natives pay them. Furthermore, while an illegal immigrant may pay SS taxes using a phony number, the SS Admin still gets the money, and the immigrant doesn't get SS benefits. Often, however, the immigrant's employer deducts SS taxes from pay but then keeps the money.

In addition, not only do illegals pay sales taxes on goods they purchase, they also pay the property and income taxes for all businesses they buy goods and services from, just as every consumer does.

Is amnesty a "slap in the face" to foreigners who put themselves through the legal immigration system? Maybe. But then again, most of those are middle-class, educated people with the thousands of dollars (equivalent) to pay the fees required to immigrate legally. They don't have to worry about their kids starving to death while they wait years for bureaucratic approvals.

Many people on this list have proclaimed, in one way or another, that while they respect the law, if the law demands that they give up an essential liberty (i.e., RKBA), or if it demands that they risk death for themselves and their families, then they would break the law without remorse.

Many people on this list have proclaimed, in one way or another, that the Constitution of the United States does not grant rights, it merely recognizes existing rights which were granted by our Creator, or simply because we are human beings.

In the case of a destitute Mexican, for example: because he is human he has a natural, inalienable right to seek honest, gainful employment from whomever will hire him, in order to support himself and his family if he has one. There are no jobs for him in Mexico. There are jobs for him in the United States, but U.S. law obliterates any real hope he may have of finding work here legally.

So just as most of us (supposedly) would disobey gun registration laws and resist confiscation laws, the destitute Mexican disobeys immigration laws. Does that make him a bad actor?

I have lived nearly all my life in either Texas or Southern California, so I am well-acquainted with the social impacts of having a large number of under-educated people moving into an area. I am also acquainted with a large number of Latin-Americans, some illegal immigrants, some legal immigrants, some whose families have been in what is now U.S. territory for at least two centuries.

In speaking with them what I have learned leads me to conclude that anglo conservatives have made the biggest strategic blunder since Hitler invaded Russia, by establishing themselves as anti-immigrant. Most Latino and Asian cultures have strong conserative elements (particularly as regards families), and they have first-hand experience with how socialism ruins economies. They should be considered worthy prospects for recruitment, not castigated as undesirables.

But then, as badly as Pete Wilson poisoned that well in 1994 to save his own political hide, it will be very difficult now for any Republican to bring immigrants into the GOP tent.
 
The insanity continues

An inflammatory heading, with the article ending up talking about whether any person can sue a state, using the Civil Rights statutes.

Immigrant seeks right to sue Alabama over English-only driver's test

Too long to print in it's entirety, BUT, check out some of the statements (bold emphasis mine):

"The U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments Tuesday in a lawsuit filed by a Mexican immigrant who alleges Alabama violated the 1964 Civil Rights Act by giving driver's license tests in only one language: English."

"From the 1970s to 1991, Alabama offered the driver's license test in 14 languages . . ."

"Sandoval would not have sued if Alabama officials had accommodated her in some other way - by providing a translated test or by allowing her to use a Spanish dictionary while taking it. Sandoval, who cleans homes and works at a restaurant, speaks rudimentary English, not enough to pass the tests, which require a 10th-grade level of familiarity with the language, . . ."


Thirteen years in this country and she still can't reasonably speak/read/write English? What about road signs/directions/speed limits? I have a gut feeling she isn't the only one. This is what myself and others are complaining about.

And then we have the MotorVoter bill which will let this person vote once she does get her license. Odds favor the Democrats which means another anti-gun vote somewhere along the line.

'Splain to me how the above concerns are racist.
 
Hardball,although the majority of hispanics vote for the democrats but not 90 percent.65 or 70percent is more like it.The last poll I seen said Gore got only 62 percent of the latino vote.
 
And remember in 1998 when Bush got 48 percent of the hispanic vote.I'm sure that more and more hispanics will vote republican if more comprimise.Most hispanics polled said they will vote republican if republicans change their veiws on immigration.It's just not logical to think that hispanics will vote democrat forever.
 
Make no mistake this is an issue of freedom, if "illegal
immigration continues at the present rate in a few short
years America as we know it will not exist.
Those of you 40 years of age and younger ask yourselves
how you want your remaining years to be./? Can we maintain
our life style if the population doubles.
Mexico now is an open door for "all" not just Mexican.
Many of those come for other then work.
Those of you who disagree with AZ just don't understand.
Think, if you have a 50 man life raft and its full, 50
more want on board what do you do, bring them on and sink.?
"Gives us your sick, tired, etc, can only work so long folks
then it's over......
 
Mexico should be trying to solve its problems within its own borders, not exporting its social and economic problems to a neighbor. Fox wants an open border because it means he doesn't have to worry about the massive reforms that are needed in his country in areas like social welfare and education and improved business practices. Do we benefit from the problem? Yes, to some degree, some of us, but I believe that only a small percentage of Americans gain because of the pool of low-cost labor while a much larger percentage of Americans are paying the bill, both now and in the future. If we applied some "tough love" to this issue, Mexico would have to face the need for change. My own view is that our Government is so afraid of "social instability" down South that they are willing to accept both illegal immigration and drug-dealing as the price. We are not doing either culture a favor with our current policies.
 
A couple of other things to take into consideration concerning Mexico and it's government.

1. Mexico's attitude and treatment of poor immigrants to its country is harsh. Illegal aliens from Central and South America are usually deported, often after being robbed by the authorities. Repeat offenders can get long prison sentences.

Police corruption in Mexico is rampant at every level. For instance, the Federal Judicial Police are known to knowingly buy vehicles stolen in the US. Some of these are stolen as "special orders" of the Police. Chevy Suburbans are popular.

2. According to the US DEA, the largest narcotics cartel in Mexico has something like 400 "cells". If I remember correctly, something like 15% of these cells are run by the military including six run by Mexican Army generals.

For Mexico to be a reliable and worthy neighbor of the US and other countries, then it must solve its problems and stop using the easy way out of exporting their problems whenever possible including an impoverished and often repressed population that has been subject to 80 years of Socialist government mismanagement and corruption.
 
Vincente Fox has made some useful proposals. Our goal should be to help stabilize the Mexican economy, so that more Mexicans choose to stay home. It is hard to blame people for trying to find a way to survive, which is what most of the illegals are trying to do. We should not forget they are human beings. Most Americans do not want unlimited immigration to the US, because there is a limit to our natural resources, and an ever larger population will eventually lead to a lower standard of living. We should combat illegal immigration by working to increase the standard of living in Mexico, but remember to treat the illegals in the US as we would want to be treated, if we found it necessary to survive by entering another country.
 
PAX: What does it have to do with the RKBA? I'll tell you what: seven million votes for the socialist democrats and one large step closer to all out gun control as the leftists define it.

MH: Hello? My Paternal Ancestors who fought for the Continental Army did not do so to take Mexcio on to raise. It's not my problem if the Mexican People do not have enough get up and go to say "Enough is enough" to the ruling class.
 
Willbeararms,it's unlikly that all will vote for the democrats,more like 70 percent.And if the republicans want more hispanics voting republican this is what they have to do.After this I assure you that you'll see 45 or 50 percent of them voting republican.The reason most hispanics don't vote republican is because of their opposition to things like this.
 
Pawcatch, if the hispanics do not vote Republican because they do not like or respect our immigration laws that protect our national sovereignty, then who needs them?

Also, if the Democratic Party and others try to exploit the hispanic resentment, then what does that say about the exploiters? Who's side are they on? Do we dare call them traitors?

All our politicans keep saying this is a nation of laws and not men. That does not mean it is a nation of laws except when it is inconvenient or discrimatory againts illegal aliens.

Every modern nation has immigration laws. Earlier, I mentioned Mexico's treatment of Central and South American illegal immigrants, which is generally pretty shabby.

Also, it is the view of many Mexican nationalists that the US stole the Southwest/West from Mexico in the Mexican War of 1848, and they want it back. Of course, Mexico lost the war fair and square, and that's it. Additionally, Mexican dominion over much of Southwest/West was in name only. They generally had no presence or influence in most of it anyway.
 
I have listened to this crap until I am blue in the face. I am sick of being told how NAFTA and now ignoring the Constitutional Mandate of defending our borders are good for me and my family. If Gramm pushes this through, his guaranteed vote from me is toast. I can get the same results by voting Democrat if I want to subvert the law to bring in more illegal aliens.

Let me tell you what NAFTA has done in Texas: it has lined the pockets of a few, lead to the massive influx of hard drugs in Dallas and lowered the standard of living for all who play by the rules in America. What will happen next? Maybye we'll here this: "Well you know we can get Doctors and Accountants from China and Mexico for a third of the price." I HOPE IT DOES HAPPEN THEN MAYBYE FOLKS WILL WAKE UP.

I am involved in manufacturing as a salesperson. I have sold in Mexico and it is a corrupt, bribery-laden rat race. I had a positive view about NAFTA initially. It's crap meant to screw the average guy so that the Coroporations can make more money. Funny how these corporations want the plants in Mexico but they want the exhange of dollars to happen on this side of the border. Let em' exchange capital in Mexico for a while and see how fun it is to play the palm greasing game.

I will stay in touch with Gramm's office to see if he pushes this through or not and keep everyone posted.
 
Well said, WillBearArms. And I know why Mexicans flea to this country all too well myself.
But all of you who say you are for this thing, just answer me one question: why should I allow you to pack your relatives into this country by the millions while you viciously discriminate against my own.
The law should apply equally to all who seak to become citizens of this country. We turn down millions who honestly apply for residence in this country and I do not doubt that those who apply honestly would make better citizens on the whole. We should not reward those who do not follow our laws. Quite the contrary, we should punish them.
 
There is a difference

I am a second generation American, not an Irish-American or a German-American. When my grandparents came here, they got jobs and learned English. They made education a high priority for their children. It is a totally different situation today. Instead of working to become Americans and earn their piece of the pie, a lot of immigrants want to remain foreigners and have the pie served to them.
 
From the lips of one who has been there.

A clever play on the word and SO true (emphasis mine).

A dash of poison
Balint Vazsonyi

Whether or not it shows up in the Inaugural address, one of George W. Bush's campaign themes might have more far-reaching consequences than prescription drugs for the elderly, or even tax reform. It has to do with the people who populate this land — all of them.

When I took the oath of citizenship in 1964, the judge in that Grand Rapids, Mich., courtroom admonished us henceforth to think of ourselves not as Dutch-American, Hungarian-American, or any other hyphenated American, but simply American. George Washington would have approved — he underlined the word not once but twice in his Farewell Address, and called it the most sacred appellation, to supersede all others.

That was then.

Since the advent of group-think — that most un-American of all 1960s ideas — the hyphen, a quarter-inch dash of poison, has systematically attacked the glue holding together this nation of immigrants.

We come from every corner of the planet. We bring with us all the pathologies, the ancient hatreds, the inertia and frustration of generations — all those attributes that made us or our ancestors get up and leave with not much more than the clothes on their backs. What helped us shed the pathologies, the ancient hatreds, the inertia and frustration of generations was the opportunity, the willingness, the desire to become American.

No one has been able to account for the almost biological transformation that occurs when people become American. But everyone has seen what happens when they do not.

The civil rights movement was all about making sure no one is denied constitutional rights. Now, everyone is clamoring for special rights. We have civil rights, human rights, women's rights, children's rights, gay rights, handicapped rights, to list a few. We started out with an African-American community and a Hispanic community, but now we have the Irish community, the Asian community, the Jewish community — what we no longer seem to have are Americans, plain and simple.

We just witnessed where the road leads. The president-elect has assembled a Cabinet which — I am willing to take him by his word —reflects his choice of the best persons available for the respective positions. Yet we have been treated to daily tallies by the media with regard to ancestry, counting heads as Noah might have as he tried to make certain that every species is accommodated in his ark. Did you know Spencer Abraham was Arab? I didn't. I wish I still didn't.

And to what avail? Republicans are trying to prove they are not anti-black, anti-Hispanic, anti-women, anti-disabled, anti-gay and anti-environment, until they are blue in the face. Democrats say you can appoint a Cabinet consisting solely of lesbian black women from Central America who are severely handicapped and recycle several times every day and we still will call you anti-black, anti-Hispanic, anti-women . . . (the reader can fill in the rest).

In the meantime, the country continues to split along fault lines that are being manufactured year in year out. People are regimented into adversarial groups against their will, their unconditional commitment to America mocked by those who flaunt their hyphenated identity, and once-committed Americans are being encouraged to reassume the citizenship of their ancestors — who could not wait to be out of it. (boy is THAT ever true. My old man came over here in the 20s and didn't want ANYTHING to do with Germany. He refused to teach me the language when I asked. "you don't need it. You're in America now." - Oatka)

Whose interest is being served by splitting us into countless sub-identities? Whose interest is being served by rendering this nation eventually unable to mount a defense, because we no longer know what it is we are defending? Whose interest is being served by promoting the concept of "one world," but of countless Americas?

If we are lucky, we won't have to answer these vexing questions. If we are lucky, President George W. Bush, the uniter, will reverse the process and reinstate the designation handed to me as a gift in that Grand Rapids courtroom.

The alternative is not pretty. Everything about America's success has defied the rules. But if we abandon the reasons for that unique success, we will go the way of all those countries whose names now appear before the hyphen. The miraculous transformation of everyone who used to come here into "American" has been one of the main reasons behind the success.

So, Godspeed, Mr. President. May you succeed in the great endeavor of restoring this country to what it was supposed to be, and us to who we are supposed to be. May you sense the vast number of your potential allies across the land. For, Mr. President, as we traveled from East to West and from West to East with the "Re-Elect America" tour — which you were kind to endorse not once but twice — we have found a magic word that caused detractors to fall silent, and good men and women to find their voice, whatever their party affiliation.

You will not be surprised to learn that word was
"American."

Balint Vazsonyi, concert pianist and political philosopher, author of "America's 30 Years War: Who Is Winning?," is director of the Center for the American Founding and a senior fellow of the Potomac Foundation.

All site contents copyright © 2001 News World Communications, Inc.
 
My requests to the incomming Mexicans is:
1. Learn passable English. If I move to your country, I will learn Spanish as I should.

2. Obtain a medical certificate to insure that you are not bringing any communicable diseases to infect our population.

3. Refuse all social services until you have paid enough taxes to have paid for them. Don't come here and get on the dole right away (aside from what most think, these people don't really clog up the welfare roles, not as much as anglos and blacks)

My requests to my government is:

1. Abolish the minimum wage for everybody. These people are coming here with few skills (most), and employers need to be able to hire them cheaply. Once they obtain skills and can compete in a legitimate job market their pay will increase. By keeping the minimum wage, you are guaranteeing that they will be unable to keep the jobs they've had for years (unskilled), and they will then qualify for welfare, creating a permanent welfare class out of a hard working, strong family culture.



Maybe we could just reduce the interior enforcement of immigration laws. These people are coming here to work for peanuts, and I see no reason not to let them. When my dad needs 10 miles of fencing done, do you think he is going to hire 10 white boys for the job, each being paid 6 bucks an hour? That is 60 dollars an hour, and the illegals will do it with a crew of 3, do it quicker, and charge 3 bucks an hour. The illegals have their place. Immigration law, like most Federal law is designed to destroy our free-market economy. People don't obey the laws anyway. If they did, no Mexican immigrant would come here illegally since they'd never find a job once they got here. Immigration policies are about as effective as our War on Drugs.

Another thing to consider before bashing the illegal immigrants is this:

These people come over here, do dirty jobs that nobody else will do, and they do it to support their families. How many US men would live apart from their families, live in extreme conditions in a foreign land, work 70+ hours a week for low wages to support their obligations? I work with a bunch of illegals from time to time, and I've NEVER known one to lie or steal. My biggest fear is that they may bring a lot of tuberculosis into this country. I just hope some of their culture will rub off on ours.
 
kjm, some good points you make. I agree that a good part of the US economy would have a hard time functioning without cheap, immigrant and illegal alien labor.

But look at it another way. In some ways they are stealing jobs (not intentionally) from native Americans. Many of the jobs they now perform are not unskilled or semi-skilled labor. Some are skilled jobs that generate decent wages.

We are also assuming that these immigrants are doing jobs no American would do. That is probably true in many instances. But it is not always true.

When I see a group of immigrants doing work like contruction, concrete finishing, brick laying, etc., I often think there are probably quite a few Americans who would do that work too.

Recently the Washington Post did a series of articles about illegal immigrants. They describe one guy from Mexico who had been in the country about four years and was employed as a concrete finisher. He spoke no English. But he made $800 a week. Not bad pay by some standards. The guy stays in the country long enough and learns some English he may go into business for himself.

Also, I work in the high tech world. Many of the people I work with or around are foreigners. In many instances these people are intentionally hired because they are cheaper than Americans and the assumption is they can do the work.
 
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