You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Governor or Judge?
- Thread starter RANGER94
- Start date
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I suggest you read Tom Given's analysis of the 410 revolver craze from SWAT magazine. He is not positive and given he is quite expert - that's the answer.
Let the flame wars begin. Also, search on the topic - it's been well debated.
A standard handgun and training is the better solution, than the magic weapon hype of the 410 revolvers.
Let the flame wars begin. Also, search on the topic - it's been well debated.
A standard handgun and training is the better solution, than the magic weapon hype of the 410 revolvers.
You have more than just 2 options. You have stuff from Tuarus, S&W, Magnum Research, the Thompson Contendors, the Super Comanches, Derringers (o/u and side by side), and I'm sure they are more handguns in .45/.410 I'm not aware of. Out of all the options, I'd go with Taurus. Compared to S&W, they are cheaper. And I believe the Taurus Judge guns have good quality. The Magnum Research seems to be an excellent gun, but for the price of a BFR I wouldn't be buying a .45/.410 one. I havent got my hands on a derringer yet, but I have a craving for a long barrel .45/.410. The single shot pistols are suppossed to be good target and hunting guns, but I'd be afraid to use one for self defense. A lot of people say the idea of a .410 pistol is stupid, and a lot of people like them. I know that a lot of "experts" say they are crap. But that's their opinion and if you like them, that's all that matters. It's not what they think is best, it's what you think is best. I personally am a fan of the Judge guns. I've shot a Circuit Judge a few hundred times. No misfires and no problems of any kinds what so ever. I've fired about every kind of ammo through it. I'm really wanting a 6 inched barreled Judge. If you do get a .410/.45 then I suggest Federal 000 and Hornady LEVERevolution.
Shadi Khalil
New member
"it's not what they think is best, its what you think is best"
I think when it comes to firearms and self defense, that kind of logic could get you hurt or in trouble. Reading and learning from more experienced people (sometimes called teachers or experts) is very important.
I think when it comes to firearms and self defense, that kind of logic could get you hurt or in trouble. Reading and learning from more experienced people (sometimes called teachers or experts) is very important.
dalegribble
New member
"I think when it comes to firearms and self defense, that kind of logic could get you hurt or in trouble. Reading and learning from more experienced people (sometimes called teachers or experts) is very important."
what makes them experts? how many people have they shot with various weapons? while they may offer some insights the rest is just personal opinion and conjecture.
never use a 22, shiney guns can get you killed, always use a caliber that starts with a 4, don't trust your life to a gun that costs less than $1000. i wonder what all the people that have been killed with small caliber shiney cheap guns would say about that.
my advice is do some research, make up your own mind and practice. buying a gun you can afford that shoots a caliber you can afford is much better than saving up for some megabuck mega magnum that will sit in the store till you can afford it and then won't be able to afford the ammo to practice. it is your money and your life. being able to afford the latest and greatest high dollar gun is no guarantee you will survive. i would rather have something on my belt than a picture on the wall of some new wonder gun picked by some expert getting paid to rave about it.
what makes them experts? how many people have they shot with various weapons? while they may offer some insights the rest is just personal opinion and conjecture.
never use a 22, shiney guns can get you killed, always use a caliber that starts with a 4, don't trust your life to a gun that costs less than $1000. i wonder what all the people that have been killed with small caliber shiney cheap guns would say about that.
my advice is do some research, make up your own mind and practice. buying a gun you can afford that shoots a caliber you can afford is much better than saving up for some megabuck mega magnum that will sit in the store till you can afford it and then won't be able to afford the ammo to practice. it is your money and your life. being able to afford the latest and greatest high dollar gun is no guarantee you will survive. i would rather have something on my belt than a picture on the wall of some new wonder gun picked by some expert getting paid to rave about it.
TheNocturnus
New member
Just get a shotgun (or two). Get a 12g for you and a 20g for the wife. You can get both shotguns for the price of one Judge or Governor.
Shadi Khalil
New member
Dale,
An expert is someone with reputable credentials and real world experience, someone you can learn from. The argument of "what makes them an expert" is sort of a slight to people who have dedicated their lives to a certain discipline.
I certainly agree that one should figure out what works for them on their own but they should also take certain peoples advice into consideration. For instance, Masood Ayoob (sp?) recommends carrying the same ammo as your local PD. According to Mr. Ayoob, this can help your defense in the event you shoot someone in self defense. It's not something I religiously practice but it's something I take into consideration when buying SD ammo for my Sig. The point is, there is always someone who knows more than me so if they pass the stink test, I listen and learn.
An expert is someone with reputable credentials and real world experience, someone you can learn from. The argument of "what makes them an expert" is sort of a slight to people who have dedicated their lives to a certain discipline.
I certainly agree that one should figure out what works for them on their own but they should also take certain peoples advice into consideration. For instance, Masood Ayoob (sp?) recommends carrying the same ammo as your local PD. According to Mr. Ayoob, this can help your defense in the event you shoot someone in self defense. It's not something I religiously practice but it's something I take into consideration when buying SD ammo for my Sig. The point is, there is always someone who knows more than me so if they pass the stink test, I listen and learn.
OK - I want to start any problems or stir the pot, but let's start over:
1) I have some experience with firearms. My Dad was a Chief Inspector with the Philadelphia PD with 38 years. My Dad started training me with shooting since 8 years old.
2) I am a former Army Captain - Airborne Infantry. Ranger qualified.
3) Time to train my wife - laughable. I have three children - a 6 year old son, and twin daughters at 4 years. Please don't make me irrate and state or preach to me about making time with training my wife - it aint gonna happen.
4) I usually take my wife to the range about once per year, give or take.
5) I currently keep a Colt King Cobra in a Gun Vault under my bed loaded with .38. I am not 100% confident my wife will handle those loads.
6) Keeping a shotgun under the bed, even with a trigger lock is not an option. My personal choice due to my children. A pistol in a gun vault under the bed is a much better option in my situation.
7) I have in fact started training my son with firearms with a Keystone Arms single shot bolt action .22 - but I still don't feel confortable leaving a shotgun under my bed.
8) My daughters at age 4 - definately not.
9) My question is: Will one of the pistols with .410 buckshot stop an intruder?
Thanks!
Ranger 04
1) I have some experience with firearms. My Dad was a Chief Inspector with the Philadelphia PD with 38 years. My Dad started training me with shooting since 8 years old.
2) I am a former Army Captain - Airborne Infantry. Ranger qualified.
3) Time to train my wife - laughable. I have three children - a 6 year old son, and twin daughters at 4 years. Please don't make me irrate and state or preach to me about making time with training my wife - it aint gonna happen.
4) I usually take my wife to the range about once per year, give or take.
5) I currently keep a Colt King Cobra in a Gun Vault under my bed loaded with .38. I am not 100% confident my wife will handle those loads.
6) Keeping a shotgun under the bed, even with a trigger lock is not an option. My personal choice due to my children. A pistol in a gun vault under the bed is a much better option in my situation.
7) I have in fact started training my son with firearms with a Keystone Arms single shot bolt action .22 - but I still don't feel confortable leaving a shotgun under my bed.
8) My daughters at age 4 - definately not.
9) My question is: Will one of the pistols with .410 buckshot stop an intruder?
Thanks!
Ranger 04
hydroholic
New member
Either of those pistols with .410 Buckshot will do more than just stop an intruder. Anyone who doubts that is just plain foolish! Thats why I fail to understand what all the bickering this subject brings is for. There may be a better choice for a certain individual, but that may not be the best choice for another. If his wife is a good shot with one and feels comfortable with it, then I would not wan't to be on the recieving end. To her it may be the best weapon for her situation, which doesn't make it wrong. My mom can shoot my stepfather's public defender and raging judge with deadly accuracy and feels more comfortsble shooting it than his.38 or .357. Tell her she couldn't at the least stop an intruder with either and she would laugh at you. Either would be a good choice for her, but I don't like the idea of the moon clips for the .45 ACP in the Governor, just to aggrivating. Would rather have the option of the .45 Colt and no moon clips or .454 in the case of the raging judge.
It might. We just don't have enough real-world experience with it to say one way or another. Until it's put down some folks with authority, it's an unknown quantity. I'm not betting my life on it.My question is: Will one of the pistols with .410 buckshot stop an intruder?
Nanuk gave some excellent advice. A used S&W K-Frame (10, 64, 19, 65, 66) is a great shooter, and will be much more controllable than just about any .45 Colt or .410 loading. .38 Special has a century of service saving the lives of good people, and I'd be much more inclined to trust it.
If you're set on sticking with the .45/.410 platform, however, my vote would be for the S&W. It's got a much better grip (the same as the K-Frames), a much better trigger, and it should be more reliable than the Judge.
I like the .410 option for my wife when I am away traveling for business.
What does YOUR WIFE like? If she's going to be using it she should pick it out so she has something she'll actually shoot and practice with. Guys we need to get away from the "What gun to get for the little lady" mentality, she needs to get her own gun and make the conscious decision to use it .410 revolvers are a poor choice for defense except for maybe snakes.
dnsharpshooter
New member
I cant see how .410 would be a bad choice for defense. if i took 3 or 4 buckshot pellets to the chest, I dont think i would be getting back up, and im a pretty big guy. I dont have experience with the governor, but ive shot both a judge and a public defender, and they shot very well and had no problems.
Master Blaster 2
Moderator
Since the intro of 45C/410 revolvers there has been a lot more defence 410 ammo coming out made for the pistol. As mentioned. I don't want to get shot even with bird shot 410s.
winchester
http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-410.aspx
federal
http://www.cabelas.com/handgun-ammunition-federal-premium-judge-personal-defense-ammo-2.shtml
With Taurus sucess S&W is maken the money with their version. Never see any used ones.
winchester
http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-410.aspx
federal
http://www.cabelas.com/handgun-ammunition-federal-premium-judge-personal-defense-ammo-2.shtml
With Taurus sucess S&W is maken the money with their version. Never see any used ones.
Ranger94...thank you for your service...
As to the Judge etc question...here's my experience, albeit with only one Judge..
A friend brought one out to our farm for a try out; bought it for exactly the same reasons you have stated...for his wife's less than proficient use.
The Judge in question had a trigger pull that we subsequently found that she needed two hands to pull...two fingers on the trigger, and as a result she couldn't keep it on an 8x11 piece of printer paper at 10 yds.
As to the accuracy and penetration...the Federal buckshot loads we tried that day would not penetrate one of my 1x6 fifteen year old poplar fence rails...whether they'd have done terminal damage to an intruder, I can't say. The spread at five yards, the same distance that's found in most bedrooms or living rooms in most houses short of a McMansion, was 5 inches. To me that says that the thought that a "shotgun spread" of buckshot will make up for lack of accuracy with normal pistol rounds is illusory, at across the bedroom ranges.
The .45 LC rounds keyholed at 10 yards....but did penetrate...and the group was about the same as the buck shot...5" across with me doing the firing.
In summation, I wouldn't trust my life or that of my family members to any of the current iteration of .410/.45LC revolvers...it's a concept with great advertising hype, but not a viable answer to home defense questions.
As you've said, practice to make her proficient is not going to happen...but the alternative may be worse. If she needs the use of a handgun, then you need to force the issue of practice. With three children, defending herself and them in the event that you are not there, is an enormous task. As to where to store the piece that you decide on, the lock box may be the answer, but maybe it should be in her normal haunts...like the kitchen. If you had a break-in, I just can't see her abandoning the kids while she runs upstairs to the lock box under the bed...maybe up on top of the fridge or next to the phone....
I'm retired, wife is 62, and we've had guns for defense since our boys were the ages of your children....and long before lock boxes were available. We kept a revolver in the front cloak closet next to the front door, hanging from a nail driven into the soffit above and inside of the door..within easy reach for her but out of sight. It was a Smith, and at the time my sons couldn't pull the trigger, but I had no illusions that they eventually knew where we had it. I made her practice until she could handle it and keep 'em on a sheet of typing paper at 15 feet...in actuality, she did far better than that over time.
It worried me then, keeping a gun accessible in house with small curious children in it, and it still does now, thinking back on it...but our address at the time made it an absolute necessity for a number of years. I guess what I'm saying to you is that a lot of thought needs to go into that part of the equation. In my opinion, if a gun is necessary then the lock box is the answer, but put it downstairs..and teach her to use a revolver with light loads...the .38 wadcutter in target velocities is a pretty good defensive round...Smith makes a cpl that would work for you, but be sure she can pull the trigger! BTW, for the years that our kids were not to be trusted, we kept a .38 special "snake" load as the first round to be fired from the cylinder, thinking that the first shot wouldn't be a fatal one and that if more were needed, adrenaline would get the 2nd through 6th ones fired if necessary.
Hope it works out for you...and thanks again for your service. We sleep safely at night because of your sacrifices. Rodfac
As to the Judge etc question...here's my experience, albeit with only one Judge..
A friend brought one out to our farm for a try out; bought it for exactly the same reasons you have stated...for his wife's less than proficient use.
The Judge in question had a trigger pull that we subsequently found that she needed two hands to pull...two fingers on the trigger, and as a result she couldn't keep it on an 8x11 piece of printer paper at 10 yds.
As to the accuracy and penetration...the Federal buckshot loads we tried that day would not penetrate one of my 1x6 fifteen year old poplar fence rails...whether they'd have done terminal damage to an intruder, I can't say. The spread at five yards, the same distance that's found in most bedrooms or living rooms in most houses short of a McMansion, was 5 inches. To me that says that the thought that a "shotgun spread" of buckshot will make up for lack of accuracy with normal pistol rounds is illusory, at across the bedroom ranges.
The .45 LC rounds keyholed at 10 yards....but did penetrate...and the group was about the same as the buck shot...5" across with me doing the firing.
In summation, I wouldn't trust my life or that of my family members to any of the current iteration of .410/.45LC revolvers...it's a concept with great advertising hype, but not a viable answer to home defense questions.
As you've said, practice to make her proficient is not going to happen...but the alternative may be worse. If she needs the use of a handgun, then you need to force the issue of practice. With three children, defending herself and them in the event that you are not there, is an enormous task. As to where to store the piece that you decide on, the lock box may be the answer, but maybe it should be in her normal haunts...like the kitchen. If you had a break-in, I just can't see her abandoning the kids while she runs upstairs to the lock box under the bed...maybe up on top of the fridge or next to the phone....
I'm retired, wife is 62, and we've had guns for defense since our boys were the ages of your children....and long before lock boxes were available. We kept a revolver in the front cloak closet next to the front door, hanging from a nail driven into the soffit above and inside of the door..within easy reach for her but out of sight. It was a Smith, and at the time my sons couldn't pull the trigger, but I had no illusions that they eventually knew where we had it. I made her practice until she could handle it and keep 'em on a sheet of typing paper at 15 feet...in actuality, she did far better than that over time.
It worried me then, keeping a gun accessible in house with small curious children in it, and it still does now, thinking back on it...but our address at the time made it an absolute necessity for a number of years. I guess what I'm saying to you is that a lot of thought needs to go into that part of the equation. In my opinion, if a gun is necessary then the lock box is the answer, but put it downstairs..and teach her to use a revolver with light loads...the .38 wadcutter in target velocities is a pretty good defensive round...Smith makes a cpl that would work for you, but be sure she can pull the trigger! BTW, for the years that our kids were not to be trusted, we kept a .38 special "snake" load as the first round to be fired from the cylinder, thinking that the first shot wouldn't be a fatal one and that if more were needed, adrenaline would get the 2nd through 6th ones fired if necessary.
Hope it works out for you...and thanks again for your service. We sleep safely at night because of your sacrifices. Rodfac