precision_shooter
New member
Not exactly... Father and son relationship plays a big factor in this one.
Good all round rifle
- Thread starter Devdev08
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
No it doesn't. We had a discussion very recently where the son was charged with a straw purchase for using the father's money to buy a Glock at LE discount for his father. They were both eligible to buy a gun on their own, they even did BOTH transfers through dealers but it's still a straw purchase because the son was NOT the actual purchaser as asked on the 4473.
You can not buy a gun for someone else with their money through a dealer. It makes ZERO difference what the relationship is. If you use someone else's money to buy a gun that's not for you, it's an illegal straw purchase.
Post #28 directly implicates his father in a federal felony.
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No better and no worse than factory ammo (match ammo aside) for any other cartridge, IME: The factories have to make ammo that works OK in all the bajillions of guns out there, at the lowest acceptable price point possible. The handloader has no such constraints- he can tailor his ammo to his gun, and spend as much time, effort and money as he wishes to spend in the pursuit of the perfect load. The odds of the "average" of the internal ballistics of the hojillion guns out there matching the internal ballistics of your gun ....... highly unlikely.
If you want tiny groups, you either need to handload or get winning lottery ticket lucky.
A straw purchase occurs when the actual buyer of a firearm is unable to pass the required federal background check, or does not want his or her full name associated with the purchase, and has someone else who can pass the required background check purchase the firearm for him or her. As defined by the nssf. The gun has never and will never leave my dad's possession until I'm 18 so technically no laws were broken.
semi_problomatic
New member
Technically your dad used your money to buy you a gun because you were unable to pass the federal requirements. It is still technically a straw purchase.
Can you buy the gun on your own? No
Is your dad using your money to buy you a gun in his name? Yes
I don't know why this is being brought up again. While I believe there should be some clause or leeway for situations like this, really it's pure semantics. I think it's great that a 15 yr old saved up money for a hunting rifle. I don't even see why it was brought up in the first place, as to me, it makes no difference if a parent is buying their kid a gun with their money (something that comes up here often) or with the kid's money.
I do think a .270 is a bit much gun for an "all round" gun though. But I like long range sessions...
The reloading advice was good, btw. When I first started reloading all I had was a .308. Now I reload for .223, 6.5 creed, 45-70, and .308. About to start casting for 45-70, 45LC, and .308 and reloading the 45LC as well. Reloading can really open up your options on rifles and bullet selection making any rifle more versitile.
Can you buy the gun on your own? No
Is your dad using your money to buy you a gun in his name? Yes
I don't know why this is being brought up again. While I believe there should be some clause or leeway for situations like this, really it's pure semantics. I think it's great that a 15 yr old saved up money for a hunting rifle. I don't even see why it was brought up in the first place, as to me, it makes no difference if a parent is buying their kid a gun with their money (something that comes up here often) or with the kid's money.
I do think a .270 is a bit much gun for an "all round" gun though. But I like long range sessions...
The reloading advice was good, btw. When I first started reloading all I had was a .308. Now I reload for .223, 6.5 creed, 45-70, and .308. About to start casting for 45-70, 45LC, and .308 and reloading the 45LC as well. Reloading can really open up your options on rifles and bullet selection making any rifle more versitile.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Devdev08 said:
I'm sorry sir but you are incorrect.
The case I mentioned in my previous post was one where BOTH parties could pass the background check and ultimately DID. The issue of legality is that the son used the fathers money to buy the gun and then transfer it to the father. He LIED on question 11a, where the form asks:
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person."
The bolded text there is THEIR bold, not mine.
The law doesn't care if the transfer from him to you is the next day or 10 years later. It was purchased with YOUR money on YOUR behalf.
precision_shooter
New member
This is no different than a girlfriend (16yo) buying her boyfriend (18yo) a gun. Boyfriend picks out what he wants, fills out the paperwork and girlfriend pays with her credit card. The boyfriend (father in this case) is the actual transferee of the firearm. In 3 years he could give it to the girlfriend and still no laws have been broken as he was the initial transferee of the firearm...
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
It is different. The boyfriend is filling out the form and it's his gun. The girlfriend is buying him a gift. Totally and completely different.
If he fills out the form and she used her money and he INTENDS for the gun to be hers, it is an illegal straw purchase.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Here is a link to the discussion of the other case I mentioned. It is a nearly identical scenario except that the son did the buying AND the father was actually eligible.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Devdev08 said:
No, that is wrong. See the thread that Brian has linked to in post 49.
This is off topic for this thread, so let's not have further discussion of straw purchases here. The complete story is covered in the thread that Brian linked to.
Devdev08 said:
Right now that doesn't matter.
(It might matter after the Supreme Court decides Abramski.)
And I sir, disagree with your disagreement! http://thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif (smiley thing if its not working)
I have shot one extensively and my older brother another. My youngest brother can put 5 shots sub moa at 100 yds if the rifle can do it. He could not get the Sako Finnbear to shoot better than 2.5 inches. Handloads of 4350 and 7/8. Ditto my older brother with his Mauser (he also is a very good shot). Same thing and the best he got was 1.25 with 4350.
And I will bring in the following. If a gun is going to shoot factory poorly, it seems to be the 270 for whatever odd reasons. The point is that if it does you are going to have to hand load if you want good accuracy (hunting accuracy for deer, elk or moose at under 200 yards may not matter but predator shooting it does) .
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The plural (and two is just barely plural) of anecdote =/= "data".
You shot 2 (t-w-o!) .270's and they did not group well with factory ammo ..... and how many brands and bullet weights did you try in that exhaustive "research"?
The best accuracy is nearly always obtained by a tuned handload ..... but to shoot a couple of rifles and declare that any gun in the caliber can't shoot any factory ammo accurately is totally ridiculous.
Devdev08,
Glad to see a new hunter enter the sport. Hunting creates cherished memories.
The best advice you're probably going to get will come from your dad.
If your dad or you handloads, you can expand your options.
If this will be your only rifle for many years, say through your college years, I'd recommend a 7MM-08 Rem. But a .243 Win will serve you well. I'd also recommend your looking in to a .308 Win. Maybe a .357 Mag lever rifle might work. It would be relatively inexpensive to shoot.
Most factory rifles will suit you well. My recommendation is to buy the best rifle your budget will allow.
Glad to see a new hunter enter the sport. Hunting creates cherished memories.
The best advice you're probably going to get will come from your dad.
If your dad or you handloads, you can expand your options.
If this will be your only rifle for many years, say through your college years, I'd recommend a 7MM-08 Rem. But a .243 Win will serve you well. I'd also recommend your looking in to a .308 Win. Maybe a .357 Mag lever rifle might work. It would be relatively inexpensive to shoot.
Most factory rifles will suit you well. My recommendation is to buy the best rifle your budget will allow.
As the thread has tapered off I would like to share some observations.
Yes I personally have shot two 270s, both are highly regarded rifles and neither shoots factory worth a hoot. Worth a hoot to me is 3 shot groups at around 1 inch in a hunting rifle (our 2.5 inches and worse is plain pathetic and both brothers who shoot them the most are damned good shots)
I also listed a corroboration facts from Jim Carmichal from Outdoor life and that included details of their experience which obvious was very rigorously done. That is also in line with a lto of other comments I have seen and read on the 270.
I do not ascribe any theories as to why it is so as I have none. It makes no sense, I don't buy into inherently accurate theory or cartridges generally and the 270 certainly has no odd features that make it suspect.
That said, my personal opinion backed up by all I have read from reliable sources is that a 270 that shoots factory ammunition accurately is far less common than 30-06 which I would expect to shoot factory ammunition decently.
So all kidding aside I do stand by my contention, if you buy a 270 and shoot factory don't be surprised if it does not shoot better than 2 inches and more like 2.5 to even 3 and if you really do want to ensure accuracy you better hand-load.
Once you do its capable of very good results and would be my first choice for an all around caliber if you wanted one gun to take the whole range of game (excepting Grizzly bears and then I still think the 30-06 with a 220 grain slug is the way to go)
Give the OPS needs I think the 243 is a far better choice as its more targeted to that application.
Yes I personally have shot two 270s, both are highly regarded rifles and neither shoots factory worth a hoot. Worth a hoot to me is 3 shot groups at around 1 inch in a hunting rifle (our 2.5 inches and worse is plain pathetic and both brothers who shoot them the most are damned good shots)
I also listed a corroboration facts from Jim Carmichal from Outdoor life and that included details of their experience which obvious was very rigorously done. That is also in line with a lto of other comments I have seen and read on the 270.
I do not ascribe any theories as to why it is so as I have none. It makes no sense, I don't buy into inherently accurate theory or cartridges generally and the 270 certainly has no odd features that make it suspect.
That said, my personal opinion backed up by all I have read from reliable sources is that a 270 that shoots factory ammunition accurately is far less common than 30-06 which I would expect to shoot factory ammunition decently.
So all kidding aside I do stand by my contention, if you buy a 270 and shoot factory don't be surprised if it does not shoot better than 2 inches and more like 2.5 to even 3 and if you really do want to ensure accuracy you better hand-load.
Once you do its capable of very good results and would be my first choice for an all around caliber if you wanted one gun to take the whole range of game (excepting Grizzly bears and then I still think the 30-06 with a 220 grain slug is the way to go)
Give the OPS needs I think the 243 is a far better choice as its more targeted to that application.
I completely agree with what Rmart30 said in post 14. A 7mm-o8 would be an excellent rifle for you and would be considered a best of both worlds for both deer and coyote, while the recoil is very pedestrian. The Savage Axis is nice, but also take a look at a Marlin XS7. It is a very nice rifle and I haven't heard a single bad thing about them and priced below 500 for the gun and scope combo. Whatever you decide to purchase - enjoy it, hunt hard, and be safe. good luck.
My response
Well, the only thing I can suggest, is to go to ranges where you can rent firearms, and shoot as many different types of guns and calibers. I went through so many guns, and lost lots of money because I listened to others say, this one will be good for you! Only you can decide what type of gun and caliber works best. How does the rifle feel, weight, length, caliber, recoil and price matters a great deal and is different for everybody. For me, I loved my Weather by Vanguard in. 223 Rem. And I loved my Winchester lever action 30-30. I used the. 223 for small and big game. It is small for deer and such, but shot placement is everything. When I would hunt thick timber, my 30-30 or 12 gauge were my options. I keep my rifles with their original stock, but I put a pistol grip butt stock on my shotgun for better control. The shotgun is also my go to gun for any type of emergency with dangerous people or animals. It took me many years to find the perfect gun or guns with the perfect caliber or gauge. Only you can make that decision. If you don't want to spend much, then look into used firearms. I wish you luck. Be safe and confident, you will find what's right for you.
Well, the only thing I can suggest, is to go to ranges where you can rent firearms, and shoot as many different types of guns and calibers. I went through so many guns, and lost lots of money because I listened to others say, this one will be good for you! Only you can decide what type of gun and caliber works best. How does the rifle feel, weight, length, caliber, recoil and price matters a great deal and is different for everybody. For me, I loved my Weather by Vanguard in. 223 Rem. And I loved my Winchester lever action 30-30. I used the. 223 for small and big game. It is small for deer and such, but shot placement is everything. When I would hunt thick timber, my 30-30 or 12 gauge were my options. I keep my rifles with their original stock, but I put a pistol grip butt stock on my shotgun for better control. The shotgun is also my go to gun for any type of emergency with dangerous people or animals. It took me many years to find the perfect gun or guns with the perfect caliber or gauge. Only you can make that decision. If you don't want to spend much, then look into used firearms. I wish you luck. Be safe and confident, you will find what's right for you.
jersurf101
New member
As far as a caliber that is a do all round with the factory stuff .308 is hard to beat.
.270Win/30-06 would be next on that list for me. Factory rifles in those chamberings should be plenty accurate with a good assortment of projectiles. The 30-06 is a little more versatile but not enough to make a difference to me.
.270Win/30-06 would be next on that list for me. Factory rifles in those chamberings should be plenty accurate with a good assortment of projectiles. The 30-06 is a little more versatile but not enough to make a difference to me.