Glock jams on Trooper during gunfight.

Aqil: Very poignant post. My heart goes out to the father of that boy. It is truly heartbreaking, that after a distinguished career as an LEO, he should have his son kill a cop, and then be killed.

Adalire: I think there is a communication gap, but it's very dangerous and possibly insulting to question the actions of the officers involved without all the facts. The boy was a killer, and was treated as one. My sympathy is with his father.


224: re the G21 problems... There have been discussions about this on GlockTalk. If you frequent that board, search under member "9X45". He posted some on this, although they might not still be in the archives. The San Bernardino County (CA) Sheriffs Office adopted the G21 as an issue weapon, and immediately had problems. Their chief firearms guy, Cpl John Berletich, even went to Austria, as I recall, to work with Glock to resolve the problem. I heard they did. It was related to the feed lip of the mags, the follower, and maybe something else. I heard that Glock redesigned the hi-caps (unfortunately, that does no good for civilians with older G21 hi-caps).

If you e-mail me, 224, I will forward it to 9X45 and he can forward to Berletich. Or you can find 9x45's e-mail link on GlockTalk. Or, you could just call SBSO and ask for Berletich. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited March 09, 2000).]
 
my head is bowed for all involved and ther families.

as far as feeding problems with the gun. i have carried a glock on duty since 1988, and am a glock armorer. i have only seen two instances when the gun had feeding problems due to the magazine, and this was attributed to broken followers in the magazine.
most malfunctions that i have seen are due to operator error.

operator error is usaully the problem with functionning problems with semi-autos.
mag problems are seen on all makes and models, and sometimes attributed to lack of maintenance or abuse of the mags. jambs are also caused by bad ammunition.

revolvers do jamb, i have had this personally happen twice. i had a colt trooper jamb as the trigger was being pulled back, the hammer locked back with a live 357mag ready to go, and i couldn't get the hammer down, or the cylinder open. talk about pucker factor, and what do you exactly to with a gun in this condition, well i sent it to colt of course.
and the other time i had my s&w 586 jamb,
i had a round go off that only had a primer and no powder, the bullet travel just far enough to stop itself between the cylinder and cone, jambing the cylinder so you couldn't get it open or rotate it. this was fixed with a cleaning rod. but i sure would hate to have either of these instances happen in a self defense situation.

it is much easier to fix a problem on a semi-auto in my opinion. these can be learned through training, and honed with practice.
 
Today I watched with intense interest some federal agents shooting their Beretta .40's. There were constant jams. Nobody made an attempt to explain each one which I found interesting. If the failure rate is so high on the range I can only imagine real uses.
Also, few of the officers shooting the 100 round course knew how to clear a jam and tried using some silly system they were shown that required removing the magazine from the gun. Few managed to do this in any timely method that would have been applicable to real use. It was a comedy of fumbles and blunders. I do not sleep well tonight as a result.
 
My sympathy goes out the the father and all the police involved. Taking a life is not an easy thing to do , despite the need to do so.
On the gun failure issue I have seen most failures to be either shooter problems or magazine problems... worn dirty mags or bent feed lips etc. I practice with friends and we have a shooting game where we have to duplicate the hold and stance of a shooter and try and hit his bullit hole . We fire upside down and sideways, one hand , kneeling etc. It is not done quickly, it is slow and requires much care to never aim the gun at anything but the target , and never put a finger on the trigger till your shot is set. It has taught me how to shoot under terrible conditions, but not under stressful-terible ones. Those of you that have benn shooting a long time may wish to try your glocks at many angles and positions. Mine have not ever failed under any shooting position.
 
I'm getting stinkin' SICK SICK SICK of all this silly talk about limp-wrist jams.

It's a HAND gun!! If it won't function when fired with one hand, you've either got a design defect or an execution defect (swapping to stiffer springs for no good reason, for example).

I've done a lot of one-hand shooting with M1911s, SIGs, various .22s, and two or three Glocks. None of 'em ever jammed, even when held lightly.

IM oh-so-inflated opinion, so-called limp wristing should NEVER induce a jam unless combined with two or three other factors, like dirty unlubed gun and weak ammo, or operator error of thumb dragging on the slide combined with a slow-rising mag follower, and so forth.

Glock botched this affair badly and got lucky that the shooter using their product survived.

Pray for the living. The dead are already well taken care of. Accept the fact that despite our best efforts, even our own flesh and blood can choose the evil path. The Devil whispers lies until the poor kid thinks there's "no other choice" but to shoot it out.

Walt: It takes a recoil shield defect for a round gun to jam when fired upwards. I checked out all of my revolvers years ago and they all passed.

Sorry for the rant. It's a sad story all around.
 
Sad story.

Did the officer involved ever qualify or practice shooting one handed while restraining his dog with the other?

TC
 
What brand of ammunition was/is the PD using in their G20s? I've had 4 FTF jams in my G19 with Remington UMC ammo, and no jams at all with other brands of ammo.
 
thats not a very good story but it does show that some LEOs actually know what they are doing. it seems like this officer really knew how to handle his sidearme if he could fix a jam that fast while controling the dog and everything. he must have done it fast if the firefight was still going on. i'm glad he did have the other 2 LEOs with him or the story would have considerably changed its ending. i hope this causes your department to rush those new mags into service ASAP.
 
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