Glock jams on Trooper during gunfight.

Aqil excellent post.
Thank you for placing things in perspective.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Aqil excellent post.
Thank you for placing things in perspective.

------------------
Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Thank you 224 and Aqil,
My prayers to you and all those involved.

We'll probably never know the reason for the malfunction, doesn't really matter. The K-9 overcame. Ugly situation, the good guys won. For info, my most unrealiable gun was a K-frame .38. Got a Glock 22 / 23 now. I like 'em, still like Smiths. We gotta work through Mr. Murphy's law.

Stay safe.
 
Aqil Good post.

The young boy has somekind of mental disturbance or he is troubled as mentioned by 224.

qoute "Apparently a troubled sixteen year old took his fathers gun (the father was an officer on the Buffalo NY PD), the family car and headed west. A part time county deputy found the young man hitchhiking and stopped to investigate. Somewhere during the course of events the young man shot the deputy several times, killing him. However, before he died the deputy radioed his dispatcher stating that he had been shot."

If that is the real issue that the young boy was shot - is there no other ways to let him surrender. Does the cops who responded has no other way to diffuse nor let the boy submit himself to them?

Also, when the deputy found the young man hitchhiking and stopped to investigate - was it conducted in a way that the troubled young guy will not resort to shoot back?

There are many angles to consider to the events.

As what the rest said, glock jams and limp wristing is not the issue.

Both parties suffer and my heartfelt condolence to both grieving families.

I just pray that incidents like this will be taken care well so as to avoid death of both.

I give my Sympathy to the dead deputy and the young boy but not the responding officers that killed the young boy.

I still believe there is a way for the boy to let him give in to the responding officers. Perhaps the officers can let their K9 go off as first step to neutralize the young boy.

But my assumption is, the boy must have been mistakenly as one of the BG's or punks.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 08, 2000).]
 
Recently in a Plus P class we discussed this and myself and others have tried firing guns at various angles. Each shooter used various guns and we found a high rate of failures with specific guns to specific shooters in specific situations. It is an issue seldom discussed and reminds me of the family "bastard child." It should obviously be addressed and Plus P's input appreciated. He didn't say any particular gun was bad, but referenced an issue with all semiauto guns that may effect us all. I hope we don't ignore it.
Nothing is more tragic then the loss of a young person and police officers being human also have the same problems as each of us. They are not immune to children gone astray. No matter what we do our children can often go in unwanted directions in the best of homes. I can relate from personal experience.
 
stdalire,
Am I reading your post wrong? It sounds to me like you are blaming the officers for shooting the "boy". Did you not read he had already killed one officer? And he came out of the bushes shooting? What exactly did you expect the officers to do? Talk him into not shooting at them anymore? You stated you have no sympathy for the officers that were shot at and had to take a human life to protect themselves? Are you for real? Excuse my tone but I get a little upset when I hear a brother officer is dead, more offficers are shot at and people make statements that blame the officers for what occured. Yes the 16 year old obviously had problems, but that young man is responsible for his OWN ACTIONS.

[This message has been edited by mrat (edited March 08, 2000).]
 
Don't forget the language barrier, before we get too heavily on Stdalire's case.

But Stdalire, I'm not sure you caught everything. Certainly I don't think the young man was mistaken for a bad guy. He WAS a bad guy--he had already stolen a car and gun and murdered a cop.

Aqil, I can only imagine what you and the boy's father must be going through knowing that this is how strangers like me talk about the boy. I'm really VERY sorry. I wish I could do better than that.
 
Language barrier? Oops! I didn't know there was a language barrier until Gwinnydapooh pointed out to me. Well if that was what it was accept my apologies for my rant.
 
mrat:

I just depend from this satements and I qoute:
"A part time county deputy found the young man hitchhiking and stopped to investigate. Somewhere during the course of events the young man shot the deputy several times, killing him".

The young man was given such commands as "come out or we'll send in the dog", etc. The young man then jumped up and began firing at the officers, who of course then returned fire.

Perhaps I am wrong in giving my personal opinion. It is my own anlysis only. So, I stand being corrected: And also mrat & 224: Please posts the result of the investigation or better the Court Verdict when this case has resolved, in that way it will also resolve our doubts.

- Based on the original post, the boy was given a warning to emerge from the ditch or else the responding officers will send the dog.

- Did the officer send the dog? nope!!! The boy is scared and out of his mind already because he have shot an officer. We may say he is in the state of insanity.

- The officers expects and known beforehand that the boy is armed. So, they expect the boy will shot at them.

- To my mind, if the officers planned to capture the boy, they can do that. Well, maybe - the cops won't work like military but work as a cop.

- But look! they were not surprised to be fired at by the boy. They know beforehand that the boy is armed and expect a lot of uncertainties.

I am not justifying the boy, but I only give my own opinion and comments to the original posts and comments.

If my thinking is wrong in voicing my opinion, then I am wrong on your own perception. But remember, there are hidden things in the incidents that cannot be divulge publicly. That is why both sides are in hot water now. I may say on the part of the boy - legal impediments is over, but on the part of the living cops who shot the boy needs more explanations and if the family pursue the case, then it is a legal problem that will take sometimes.

Thank you Mr. mrat. I always accept being corrected or being criticized, for if some one say something, I just don't say amen.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 08, 2000).]
 
Gwinny, mrat:

I think I read the post more clearly even English is my 3rd language or I have language barrier.

The boy did not stole a car base on the sentence ".......took his fathers gun (the father was an officer on the Buffalo NY PD), the family car and headed west."

Let us not make the issue on buddy - buddy system, but focus on how to resolve another incidents.

I think the deputy did not exert extra precautions when he stopped and investigate the young boy, that even a single shot did not defend himself.

My only purpose is, not to duplicate such events again.

Thanks english guys - pls correct my english if it is wrong.
 
We have different definitions of stealing, I think. In my family and my state, that's what it would be called if I took dad's gun and mom's car and drove cross-country with no one's permission! I'm a bit older than he is but their stuff doesn't belong to me and if I take it and go cross-country with it, I've stolen it.

I think I see what you mean now about the case, but I disagree with it. This is why:

1. In the first case, you'd have to assume the cop shot at the boy first to say that he was at fault. I don't think we'll be finding anything like that, but I've been wrong before. Unless there's evidence to the contrary I'll assume the boy shot first.

2. In the second incident, they HAVE to give a warning before they simply unleash the dog or we'd be arguing about why they did that. I can see how it might have prevented the need for shooting, but at the cost of allowing police dogs to attack every suspect whether he's offering resistance or not? I think the cost outweighs the gain here.

My sincere apologies if I insulted you by referring to a language barrier. Maybe I'm remembering the days when your posts were harder to understand and we had to assume it was hard for you to understand ours. I don't even speak a third language so I certainly meant no offense.
 
I pray for the murdered trooper and his famiy. I also pray for the departed boy and his relatives.

If true Glock's sales of defective magazines is tantamount to criminal negligence. We wouldn't tolerate a car company knowlingly installing defective brakes on a car, why it OK for a gun company to put people's lives in danger by selling products that they know to be faulty?

I'll stick with SIG Sauers and leave Glocks to those that like taking chances.

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited March 08, 2000).]
 
Language barrier notwithstanding I believe Stdalire's sentiment is all too clear.
Because of forum policy and more importantly out of respect for the other members I will refrain from making comment on those sentiments.


------------------
Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
224

It sounds like you have mag problem well identified. So why didnt the department take independant action when glock was slow to respond? Followers, springs, rebuild kits, and whole new mags are immediately available from a variety of sources. You might even get glock to reimburse you down the road.

It would seem to me that $20-30 to rebuild a couple of duty mags is cheep insurance whether it comes out of the departments budget or each officers pocket.
 
I am sorry to hear about this tragic loss of lives, and thank you for the discussion about Glock quality.

As another aside, I will point out that the boy now becomes another 'child' killed-by-guns statistic - even though he had become an armed criminal.

His tragic death will count against us, and further aid in the disarming of honest citizens. The LEO's tragic death will be used in the same way. No weight whatsoever will be given to the fact that three LEO's defended their own lives (as well as the citizens they protect) with firearms.
 
First, rest in peace; slain reserve officer. to his family and friends i offer my condolences.

#2. I'll have to agree with what Gunslingers last post said and leave it at that.

#3. If the followers and springs were known to be defective or weak, fixem! There have to be Glock armorers in the KHP. Whats the problem, the responsibility for maintenance of duty weapons is that of each officer. If mine were prone to jamming [due to weak springs or follower problems] i'd get it fixed, period seeing how my life depends on its funtion. Who tests these guns before there purchased from Glock? Hopefully the new mags will fix this problem.
 
If I remember correctly from Stdalire's earlier post's, he has had several bad encounter's with police in his country. He has often stated that he was in fear for his life from sveral "bad" officers, and that "bad" officers were very common in his area.

Although this shooting seems justified to me, I can uderstandstand why someone that has had many bad police experiences would be leary of police.

Chris Nemeth
 
April,

Thank you for your post. It only deepens the tradgedy that a fellow officer has to live with the fact that his son killed a cop. Please express my sympathies to T.C. and his family. He certainly sounds like a "cops cop" and someone to emulate.

stdlaire,

Exactly what world do you live in ? You've expressed your opinion and I'll give mine. You're full of bovine feces sir. The young man was given the opportunity to surrender. The final incident was not the first time in this event that he had fired at the officers involved (not to mention killing the deputy). The young man was given the opportunity to surrender and refused. Let me restate my quote, "the young man jumped up and began firing at the officers". Now just exactly where in that scenerio do you think the officers were in the wrong ? Is there a certain number of shots that you think a criminal should be able to fire before we can defend ourselves ? Perhaps the officers involved should have sacrificed their lives as well, just to make sure that no harm came to the poor misunderstood youth ? It's painfully obvious that you aren't an LEO sir and in my *opinion* that's a good thing.

On the topic of officer safety (which I teach to our recruits incidentally) the slain deputy was seen by a passing motorist conversing with the young man. The deputy was seen seated in his patrol car with the window rolled down. The offender was seen standing at the drivers door talking to the deputy. Any cop should be able to tell you that this is certainly *not* the way to do this. To say that the deputy was to blame degrades his sacrifice, and the sacrifice that his department and family will continue to make. Through a lack of training the deputy made some mistakes that got him killed. Incidentally, the troopers involved were thirteen year road vetrans and this wasn't their first scrap.

The deputy was a 21 year old part time officer who was going to college finishing his criminal justice degree. Apparently he had only worked for the sheriffs office for a few months and had not yet attended the state run academy. Here in Kansas most of the smaller agencies don't have their own training centers and send their people to the state run academy for certification. The state center is continually back logged and officers can work the street for up to a year, sometimes a year and a half before going to the academy. This is an invitation for disaster IMHO. My agencies academy is currently six months long, it is a very demanding military style program. I always tell prospective recruits that if they make it that far and report for training then they'd better *really* want to be there. Our drop out rate is currently hovering around twentyfive percent. Most of that occuring within the first week, sometimes within the first twentyfour hours. Our entire training proccess from the academy, to field training and finally probation is a period of one year. When they finally get out on their own they're as ready as anyone can be. I went from the military to the Highway Patrol, as such I never attended the states academy. I don't think that was a bad thing. The troopers that I work with on the KHP are some of the finest people that I have ever known, professionally or otherwise. That is probably the main reason why I don't seek a higher paying job elsewhere. Our agency has a fine tradition of professionalism that we work very hard at to maintain. Our recruits are told that the troopers who came before them have built the reputation that they will enjoy, it's up to them to maintain it.

That being said, the KHP isn't perfect (show me a perfect agency and I'll go there !). We do have our problems. As to why the magazines weren't replaced immediately through other sources I can't say. I'm a cop not a desk jockey. As for myself, I did have an order placed for a couple of new mags at a local shop. I also carry a backup gun on my person (any cop who doesn't is a fool) as well as a rifle and shotgun in the patrol car.
 
The only revolver that I know of which would be (and was) effected by limp wristing was the .455 Webly-Fossberry automatic revolver. You don't see many of them around these days.
 
Respected LE's and particularly on you cnemeth:

· I have no personal grudge to any one especially to the Police organization. You have mentioned again the 1st post I made in this forum as a reason that you look at me as an anti cop. For your information, even I have several encounter of rouge cop, I never take things personal.

· My brother in law (husband of my sister is a former chief of police). My sister in-law husband brother, is currently a policeman in The Manila's Finest Police in Philippines. My wife first cousin is A Philippines Military Academy Graduate and he is in the service. And many military and police officers of her family that are active.

· I am A Gun Club member and all my Brods in the Club are police officers and Military man and I am one of those having good records thereon. And in past governments we had, I worked in organization to help the authority (not to mention the agency for my personal safety).

· This is just to show you or others of tagging me like anti cop as always mentioned by some every time I tried to make comments to certain issues.

· Even our Philippine Police Chief are after rouge, inept and corrupt cops and that makes himself created a lot of enemy.

· Anyway Cnemeth, you want another truth about my first post.

· Here is it. That corrupt former Philippine Constabulary - his named is Sergeant Apolinario Pablo. A bastard son of WWWII Allied soldier who left his Filipina Wife. He was reared by his step Filipino Father.

· This guy for your information, is a number one tough man in my locality that during his time he can get everything for free from meat to vegetable vendors. He have killed one guy and tag it as as communist but it is not true, the victim was a mere peasant.

· I am only the guy who fougth him squarely up to court. But because he is in the active service on that time, he has all the protection - (that is my expectation), who want a company or provincial commander to put his man in hot water anyway.

· To make the story short, he took his early retirement because he is afraid from the communist in the rural areas. He escape from the province after he retired for fear of his life and stay in Manila and work as Private Security Guard. Now he is one of those rags. If you have access to the Philippine Military or Police Records, you can extract his name from there and you may see many pending cases of this guy.

· I am not the kind whom you're negatively harboring in your mind. If I am that kind, I will not be issued two pcs of Hand Guns with licensed and permit to carry.

· If I am anti cop I should have been in the mountain as one commander of the rebel and utilize my knowledge to liquidate cops, because I am also formally educated having an MBA. But I am just mere ordinary citizen who want to enjoy the bounty of God given life in this world. But being an ordinary citizen I know my rights and I know when I need to protect it.

· You have a good memory cnemeth that until now, my first post is still a basis that you personally attacking me if I comment on police issues that may not suit your taste.

· Well, at least I got a lesson again - don't worry I will apple polish when such issues like this will arise so that you won't remind me again my first post.

· Again, I am only commenting on the raised issues. My comments might be right or wrong but that is my opinion and I am also willing to be corrected. That is why you're posting something to be discussed and reach to a point of agreement.

Thanks


[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 09, 2000).]
 
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