Glock jams on Trooper during gunfight.

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Just a few days ago two of my co-workers were involved in a shooting.

Apparently a troubled sixteen year old took his fathers gun (the father was an officer on the Buffalo NY PD), the family car and headed west. A part time county deputy found the young man hitchhiking and stopped to investigate. Somewhere during the course of events the young man shot the deputy several times, killing him. However, before he died the deputy radioed his dispatcher stating that he had been shot.

A manhunt then ensued in which several of my co-workers were involved. The situation finally came to a head when two troopers and a local deputy discovered the young man hiding in a ditch. One of the troopers and the deputy were armed with shotguns (Rem. 870 police magnum). The remaining trooper is one of our K9 handlers. As such he was controlling his dog with one hand, with his G21 in the other.

The young man was given such commands as "come out or we'll send in the dog", etc. The young man then jumped up and began firing at the officers, who of course then returned fire. In the course of events the K9 handler fired two rounds and you guessed it, the G21 jammed with a failure to feed. Fortunately he stripped the magazine from the pistol, cleared the weapon, reloaded and was able to re-engage. All three officers escaped injury and the offender will never see seventeen.

Luckily the trooper had two other officers with him who were also returning fire. If the circumstance had found him alone the outcome may have been quite different. This all relates back to the magazine problems that we've been having with our G21s. We're finally receiving our new magazines from Glock, however these troopers hadn't gotten theirs yet. The new magazines look just like the old ones. Not at all like the prototype replacements that we had received for evaluation. We'll see if they work or not.

All of our malfunctions had been on the range until this incident. Fortunately no one was killed because of "Glock perfection", this time.

Anyone doubting the truth of this post can contact Kansas Highway Patrol headquarters in Topeka Kansas for confirmation.
 
And, as a training issue, the value of knowing how to clear stoppages quickly and efficiently!

Please pass on my congratulations to your personnel for surviving and successfully handling that encounter.
 
Kudos to the lawmen who won the gunfight; shame on Glock.

Have any troopers spent $20 from their own pockets to buy a working magazine to use while waiting for Glock to fix things? It seems as though that would be relatively cheap life insurance.
 
Can you be more specific about the failures you have been having?

Its been my experience that the G21 High caps like (need) fresh mag springs often.
 
Good Lord. I still can't believe Glock did that to you. I'm hoping my G17 works well but based on your experience, I'll have to put it through serious paces. I don't think I'll be spending my own money on Glock. Those CZs look better and better.
 
Hmmmmn...sounds like the trooper needs to trade his Glock for the one John232 has ("I can't seem to get my Glock to jam or not work - Why is this?). ;)
 
It is not training issue. It is a FAILED gun issue. Shooters don't like to admit it, but we are suspecting a failure rate of semi autos in actual street use of 10-20% or MORE. It is to the point it is not uncommon and expected to the degree that have to show officers how to solve a problem created by the gun. I'll bet that officers gun would go to the range and go a thousand rounds with no problem and had a history of no problems. So what is the problem?
It isn't what we want to hear if we love our semi autos. This issue comes up after many shootings as the gal cop I think it was in Washington or Oregon that was killed when her Glock failed. It gets ignored and a lot of excuses fly.
We decided to look into it and found the primary reason was the semi auto often gets fired in odd or unusual angles. On my web page you see an officer on his back with a slide locked backed after one shot. Again an odd angle.
San Antonio had an officer fire over a roof of a car and the gun failed on a third shot.
The only reason the officer survived the shooting mentioned to start this thread, was LUCK. He left a window open big enough to drive a tank through for the bad guy. I hate luck as a partner. Not very predictable.
Any person that carries a semi auto had better understand the perils of a semi auto for self defense. The lack of failures on the range has nothing to do with reliability in the real world where conditions are not ideal. In the real world a semi auto has some in built perils. Before you utter the words I often carry a G17 or 1911 and other semi autos. I just admit they have that potential not found with a revolver. I'm not blind loyal to the concept of a semi auto. Yes, "my kid would do that."
 
I wonder if semi-auto users ought to try fring their guns at odd angles. While it would not be safe to shoot upward on a range, some upside down and sideways practice might be a good idea.

I also wonder if gun manufacturers test their products in unusual positions. Police sometimes have to fire with their guns pointing straight up (officer on back, BG with knife) or straight down (BG on back pulls gun). No problem with a revolver, but some semi-auto pistols may not work in such cases.

Jim

Jim
 
Any info regarding G21 magazine problems and fixes by anyone would be greatly appreciated. Certainly don't want to be in a self-defense situation with an FTF due to mag problems. Thanks. CTHOMAS
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pluspinc:
It is not training issue. It is a FAILED gun issue. Shooters don't like to admit it, but we are suspecting a failure rate of semi autos in actual street use of 10-20% or MORE. [/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. Though your points are valid and well-received, when the adrenaline is running high, it is easy to get "limp wrist" and thus not provide enough solid resistance to the slide coming back, thus jamming the weapon. Though none of us were there and only the officer whose gun jammed knows for sure, at the range and in competitions, limp wrist is the reason for half the jams.



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Angel Shamaya
http://www.KeepAndBearArms.org
webmaster@keepandbeararms.org
 
Regarding limp wristing:

When we first started experiencing failures with the G21 I for one put quite a bit of it down to shooter error (as is most often the case). However, as the problems increased instead of decreasing it became obvious that this was not the problem. The K9 trooper involved in this shooting knows what he is about. I would be very suprised if this was a case of shooter error.

Bullwinkle,

Our magazine problems can be traced to several sources. The main problem was with the magazine follower. The follower design was found to be defective. we know this because Glocks answer when confronted was "yes we know". The front of the follower would drag against the metal sleeve on the interior of the magazine, causing a failure to feed. Further problems were traced to the magazine spring. The spring is supposed to have eleven coils I believe, many of ours were found to have eight or nine. Many of the magazines were found to have springs meant for ten round mags, ours are thirteen. Glock was apparently using two subcontractors to manufacture springs, one good, one bargain basement. Unfortunately we recieved the latter.
 
KBA.org--isn't that pretty much the same thing PlusP said? I mean, are revolvers affected by "limp wristing?" Couldn't "limp-wristing" be brought on by unusual angles, the way a champion squatter used to a given groove can't double his bodyweight at other angles and speeds?

And how can they determine that a given failure was caused by limp-wristing after the fact? I mean, if there's a pattern of stoppages that come to a halt when you alter your grip, you can be pretty sure, but if it's only one incident I can't imagine how you could be sure.
 
Not to say that the Glock magazines weren't defective, but as has been pointed out already, limp wristing could have been a big factor. You will never be able to predict what mode of mind you will be in, nor will you be able to predict what position you will be firing from. You also will never recollect, and nobody else will notice in a time of need that any of this was even the case. The revolver would have an obvious advantage in these situations. Hypothetically the slide could move back (exact opposite of recoil) quick enough to not even allow for case extraction, maybe not by hand consistently, but it is possible. Those of us who carry semi auto's must be aware of the disadvantages of carrying them. Nothing is 100%.
 
A couple of days ago here on TFL I was critized for making the statment on the "Sig jambs after 26 rounds" thread that I would not trust my life to any auto with the exception of the 1911. Hmmmmmm...........

------------------
Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Pluspinc; what about the issue of shooting at elevated targets with revolvers, and the base of the cartridges hanging up on the recoil shield, tying up the revolver?

Walt
 
I DO trust my life to a G21. I also have a couple of 70 Series Gold Cups. The Glock shoots when the others jam.

I use Glock 10-round factory mags for shooting .400 Cor-Bon; old hi-caps for .45. Never get any jams or failures.

Probably a bad batch of magazines, combined with an attack dog in one hand, bad guy shooting, and Glock 21 in other hand. Just might have been limpwristing. I'm just relieved that the b.g. got his just due, and that the officers were not hurt.

I doubt if most l.e.o.'s shoot as much as I do. They're probably better equipped, by their special training, however, to handle stress situations than I am.

I guess we all remember the trooper who emptied his gun at a b.g. (it was on t.v. a lot) at three or four yards, with no hits. According to such folks as Col. Cooper, Wyatt Earp, Gunny Hathcock, etc., mindset is a great factor in gunfights.

BTW, the fact that Gunny Hathcock's Handgun of Choice during his later years was a G21, is endorsement enough for me. (Not that I need anybody's recommendation for my choice of personal defense weapons)
 
I attended that young man's memorial today.

His family is devastated.

The department is evastated.

His father, T.C. Smith, is a decorated 31 year veteran. He has always worked the areas no one else wanted. He was the Lieutenant who got me through a rookie year when my precinct alone had almost 40 homicides.

He is the one of th most honest, fair and courageous men I have ever met in my life. One of the most loved and trusted men on our department. He turned down many offers at higher positions to work the streets.

When I had to shoot someone off duty in 94 and another Lieutenant tried to screw me around, T.C. came in from home to make sure my paperwork was in order, and gave me tips on debriefing.

When my brother was stabbed to death in 95, (I went to the call)T.C. Smith heard the vehicle description over the radio and found the killer hiding in his car in a yard, alone.

When my partner was shot to death 2 blocks from the station house in 97, T.C. took the lead in the manhunt that ultimately located Jonathan Parker.

That's what makes it so tragic is that another officer has made the supreme sacrifice, and this disturbed boy's father is a cop, through and through.

I know that this post doesn't have much to do with the G21 misfeeding, but this thing still really hurts now, on both ends. My precinct has lost 5 active duty officers to shootings and car accidents since 97. I just found out my FTO died today.

All of our love and prayers go out to the officers in Kansas, we here know what it's like to loose a brother.

Thank you for your patience.
 
Shooting with one hand is a recipe for limp wrist jams. Just about any gun is prone to jam in such a situation. I saw a Beretta on TV the other day that jammed so badly the police woman couldn't finish the qualifier. I wonder how many other brands of guns jam while in a fire fight, I bet others jam many more times than Glocks do. Can't blame the Glock, blame the one hand shooting officer.
 
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