Glaser Safety Slugs

I'm really broke but am in desperate need of training. Could I get the free course? I'm in TN, so you'd have to throw in airfare (1st class if you can swing it), transportation (a limo would be nice but I'll settle for an SVT Cobra), food and lodging (any five star hotels/restaurants around). Oh, and companionship. Just make everything for two and I'll bring my fiance (she could use the training).
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The Mall of America is very close to the range. My limo is broke, you can stay at the Hairy Arms Hotel near me, as for airfare I can swing that but only thing I have passes for is "roof" seats. As for your fiance, send pictures first. Not that I'm fussy but hard to beat what I have now. If she is over 25 years old forget it. I married a 21 year old a couple of years ago and I can't take another. Someone said to try Viagra, and I did but she won't take the pills.
 
Comrades!

The illustrious chairman of this sub-forum reminds you that your foxholes are facing the same way. Please watch that friendly fire.

Oleg
 
Pluspinc; you mean that the price of airfare and food and lodging is NOT included in the $75??? I may have to reconsider my comment about how reasonable the price of your course is! ;) ;) :)

AC; anyone who carries HydraShoks in a 1911 is a person who I respect immensely! I am surprised you find the blast of 125gr. .357 JHP's to be intolerable. My younger daughter uses this very load. Of course, we both wear muffs AND plugs when shooting. She has a Ruger SP-101 with 3" bbl., Mag-Na-Ported.

Buzz knox: regarding this hydrostatic shock phenomenon, the general feeling (but it is controversial) is that it is NOT seen with low velocity bullets, such as handgun bullets. Some even question whether it is seen with high velocity bullets.

This was the problem with the goat study. The 'authors' tried to say that handgun bullets could cause an increase in the pressure of the carotid arteries, and this adversely affected the brain, causing incapacitation. The problem is that (assuming that the tests are real) they went to the trouble of putting a 2 kHz pressure tranducer in the carotid artery, and then recorded its' output on the EEG leads, which record electrical activity, NOT pressure.

I am unaware of any scientific evidence that the hydraulic shock phenomenon actually exists. The vascular system is very compliant (flexible) and I doubt a pressure wave would be able to travel all the way down to the smallest vessels which actually feed oxygen to the organs, the capillaries, and damage the tissue. During the regular pumping of the heart, the pressure wave caused by contraction is gone by the time you get to the capillaries. Temporary expansion of larger blood vessels occurs with every heart beat, so hypothesizing that a larger expansion due to hydraulic shock could cause damage is understandable, but I don't think it is likely. Certainly Dr. Fackler did many autopsies on people who died of high velocity bullet wounds, and never found evidence of hydraulic shock damage.

The kinetic energy dump is much the same thing; while some people think that the kinetic energy is magic, I feel that the destruction done to the tissue by the bullet is the real important thing. Certainly tissue damage reduces the kinetic energy of the slug, but I don't think the rate of transfer of kinetic energy (at least in handgun bullets) is all that important. A slow, fullwadcutter cutting a nice sharp hole through vital organs would work just fine, IMHO. If it were moving more rapidly, it may work better, but I wouldn't say that it would have to be slowed rapidly (dump its' kinetic energy) to be effective. One of the perps in the 1986 Miami FBI shoot out took a .357 bullet right in the face; it put him down immediately. Unfortunately, it lodged in his sinuses, doing no real permanent CNS damage, and he woke up a minute or so later, and started to try to shoot back. He certainly had a lot of kinetic energy transferred over a short period of time with only temporary incapacitation.

Ice Man; I am not sure that pluspinc missed the boat on the shotgun pellet embolus. I assumed he meant that the pellet would enter a blood vessel, and be carried to a distant site, where it stopped the blood flow and caused tissue damage. This would indeed be an embolus. If he was describing the blockage of a blood vessel at the site of the pellet entering the blood vessel, then this would be a thrombosis.

Pluspinc; will send snail mail addy and await video. Thanks very much for the kindness. Walt
 
Rock-Jock

In reference to your question about ammo, I wouldn't keep ANYTHING in my gun if I haven't put literally HUNDREDS of rounds through it to test for total reliability. That's one of the reasons I try to keep the same ammo in the gun at all times... practice or not.

Since I can't afford to test hundreds of rounds with either Glaser or Mag-Safe, I don't ever shoot with their ammo.

Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
If a person uses a revolver they don't have to shoot "hundreds of rounds" for reliability. Solved that problem.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
AC - Good Answer... I'll buy that.
:D

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I mean, if I went around saying I was an Emperor because some
moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, people would put me away!
 
I don't know if this will add anything to this heated discussion, but....
When I was a kid growin' up in Texas, I made friends with this new kid in town. He was the typical strange kid from a strange family, and all of us local kids thought he was brilliant because he wasn't from our town. All of our mothers just groaned when we mentioned that we were hanging out with him, and grimaced when we shared some of the advice he had given us.
Anyway, he showed us how to take a 12 ga. round of #8 and slice casing at the bottom of the shot cup. The incision would almost circumnavigate the casing, save a quarter inch piece to keep it together. (By the way, don't try this at home! I was a kid and a stupid on at that.) He had some nifty name for it that currently escapes me, but swore that Teddy Roosevelt himself used this configuration to hunt elephants in Africa. At any rate, when loaded carefully into a shotgun and fired at close range, the whole package would hit the target with an enormous impact. Blew big chunks out of pine trees with it. Lucky we didn't catch half the shot back in our faces. Thank goodness none of us got hurt, but it did impress me with the power of frangible loads. At any rate, that's my story for what it's worth. And I figured it was more analogous to Glasers than the watermelon patch scenario. And again, do not try this, however tempting it may sound!
 
PlusPInc,

But he was talking about a GLOCK... not a lousy six shooter... oohhhh!!!

them's was fightin' words,
:o)
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
Over a hundred years of modern handgun history, we STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT REALLY WORKS. Does anything?

We cannot agree on what to shoot or where to hit. Placement is not everying. Type of bullet is not everything. We have so little confidence in these weapons its a wonder we carry them. It sounds like if we pull them in defense we better be hoping the BG just stands down. We're pretty sure we can kill with absolutely every caliber and type of bullet and muzzle length, just not kill soon enough for us live tell about it. That's not conforting.

On the other hand, I'd like to hear of ANY case of several .45s to the chest NOT DOING THE JOB. I carry .380s and 9mms, but might switch if the .45 comes up UNDISPUTABLE.

I thought it silly at first, but now I think it is logical to carry a mag full of a variety of ammo: frangeable, JHP, and FMJ. And empty the clip on the BG. When they ask why, say handguns are weak and there was no guarantee he wouldn't keep coming.

So I've given up on one-shot stops. What I want to know is: Do an overwhelming number of defensive shootings result in an incapacitated attacker before harm is inflicted? I hope so. That's the reason I carry.

Oh yeah, this was on Glasers... it appears that they help one to not have to face their attacker in court.
 
PlusPInc,
But he was talking about a GLOCK... not a lousy six shooter... oohhhh!!!them's was fightin' words, :o)Ben
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Glock? Yes, many chances to miss. Who needs more than six? Glock? I have one. Try to keep it near my 8 track tape player, next to my Beta machine and my Pong Game. Brought it home in my Yugo. See you this sunday in the "Church of Glock." Let us pray...........
 
Walt Welch said:
This was the problem with the goat study. The 'authors' tried to say that
handgun bullets could cause an increase in the pressure of the carotid
arteries, and this adversely affected the brain, causing incapacitation. The
problem is that (assuming that the tests are real) they went to the trouble
of putting a 2 kHz pressure tranducer in the carotid artery, and then
recorded its' output on the EEG leads, which record electrical activity, NOT
pressure.

Walt, I went to this site: http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/wais/data_files/flubber/Docs/goats and read
this thing.

It looks to me as though there were TWO pieces of equipment used here. One for measuring pressure, the other for measuring EEG electrical activity.

It looks like they are comparing separate readings from two different charts to determine some kind of correlation between the two. The way I read it, EEG leads were connected to the leads in the scalp while the transducer leads were connected to the transducers in the neck. Anyway, I copied and pasted a few sentences:

Equipment inside the test room consisted of:

(2) Transducer/computer/strip chart recorder

(3) Electroencephalograph/strip chart recorder

Electroencephalograph and transducer leads were connected to the animal's head and neck area and taped to isolate them from each other.

If the autopsy revealed a valid test, technicians began the painstaking task
of "real-time correlation". This process amounted to comparing the strip chart tracings produced by the transducer signals (systemic pressure) with the electroencephalography tracings (brain wave patterns). What the technicians looked for was a match between the spiked areas of the
transducer tracings (high systemic pressure) and slowed or flat EEG tracings (diminished consciousness or possible brain death).

If a spiked pressure tracing corresponded to a flattened or sluggish, EEG tracing (which was usually the case), a positive correlation was recorded.

In a substantial numbers of cases the subject was incapacitated almost instantly. Each time this occurred, between 2 and 5 pressure spike tracings of high amplitude and short duration were found which immediately preceded and matched corresponding, diffused or flattened lines (EEG tracings).

Sooooo it seems to me that they did not use the spressure tranducers and then
recorded its' output on the EEG leads. There were two seperate recording devices independent of each other whose readings were traced and then used to try and find if incapacitation resulted dependent/independent of each.

Of am I reading this incorrectly?


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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
What if you shoot 'em with Glasers and then use hardball to threaten the witnesses so they won't call an ambulance?
 
and almost a decade later, I found this thread incredibly informative.... and I can't say I didn't get a laugh out of its descent into humor... ;) you guys are too much...

just wanted to say thanks for sharing this information!!!
 
frangible slugs, etc.

If you look at the ballistic gelatin testing data in brassfetcher.com, it seems that the penetration of .38spcl and 9mm Glasers is uneven. It ranges from about 16" (good) to 7" (maybe not so good). In some cases the deepest penetration was from a fragment and in some instance from the case that did not totally penetrate. If you believe the FBI (?) they advocate that 12" is about the minimum penetration necessary from a handgun projectile. I don't know if frangibles are good cartridges or not - I have seen many GSW, but none with Glasers.

While some vital organs are close to the body surface from some angles, they are not so close from other angles, particularly if they must traverse the upper arm - thus the FBI insistence on 12" penetration.

Walt's comment is correct about MOST shotgun wounds seen in the ER. My ER time was in a large city, not a rural area, but the majority of shotgun wounds were with smaller shot from streetcorner altercations or drive-by shootings. These rarely caused serious injuries unless they were at very short range. Buckshot, however, was an entirely different story. The Box O'Truth water testing of shotgun projectiles illustrates this well.

Walty is also correct about the absence of compelling scientific data about the so-called hydrostatic shock effect causing cardiovascular or neurologic incapacitation.
 
I am a member of the security ministry at my church and I load with Glazers as not to worry about over penetration inside of the sanctuary, if the unspeakable ever happened.
 
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