Girl accidently shot at church

I do not believe the system failed at all, but I do believe that this guy used very VERY poor judgement. Carrying concealed is not something to show off in public, it is part of your right to protect yourself should the negative situation present itself. That is what makes this anything but an accident.
 
In any firearm safety discussion or handling event:

In addition to the 4 absolutes I always drill this important sequence when clearing:

remove the magazine (source of ammunition) first

check the chamber second

If you reverse these steps, you have not cleared the firearm

My 9 y.o. son recites " no magazine, nothing in the chamber" any time we handle firearms.

My heart goes out to the girl and her family.
 
As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties. It shocked me, in the military even, how many people didn't know when their weapon was loaded or not.

But, if the basic safety rules would have been followed, they wouldn't have discharged the weapon.
 
As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties.
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Yep. Dumb the machine down to the user's level, rather than expect the user to rise to the complexity of the machine.

I remember when cars had seat belt interlocks that prevented you from starting the car unless they were fastened.

Of course, the manufacturers had it all figured out, and provided a switch in the seat to detect when there was someone sitting in it.

It was high comedy watching someone fasten a seat belt around a bag of groceries so they could start their car.

I don't believe that cars are set up like this now. I believe you get a warning, but the car will still start with the seat belts unfastened.

The firearm equivalent would be a loaded chamber indicator.
 
Of course as soon as you make a more idiot-proof device, along comes a better idiot........

If we actually had universal periodic Militia training like the Constitution intended the training problem could be solved. Or at least reduced.

(But that ain't gonna happen.)
 
If we actually had universal periodic Militia training like the Constitution intended the training problem could be solved. Or at least reduced.
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Like the cop who shot himself in the leg while talking to a classroom full of children? :eek:Idiots tend to reduce themselves - guns or no guns.:D
 
No excuses

I don't like Zambrana's excuse, because there isn't one. Every weapon is loaded is the mantra. Tragic story and makes us all look bad. Every year lots of people get killed with "unloaded" weapons.
 
Here's a radical concept (no offense to the Four Rules intended) -

"Never assume a gun is unloaded. Before proceeding with an activity that requires a gun to be unloaded, verify the unloaded status."

"Never assume a gun is loaded. Before proceeding with an activity that requires a gun to be loaded, verify the loaded status."

In other words, think about what you are doing and act rationally. The "never assume" advice means just that. Just because it was unloaded/loaded yesterday, or 5 minutes ago, doesn't mean you shouldn't check it when you pick it up. It only takes a few seconds, and then you know you can proceed without unfortunate surprises.
 
As much as purists hate it, this is the reason for mag disconnect safeties. It shocked me, in the military even, how many people didn't know when their weapon was loaded or not.
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Based on the discussion in another forum, it appears the gun used in his security duties was a Ruger SR9, which does come with a magazine disconnect safety. The gun involved in the accident here was apparently a Ruger semi-auto; but without the disconnect safety.

I wonder how much the disconnect safety of his duty gun may have led him to be complacent with regards to proper gun safety in this circumstance?
 
Now that is an interesting question.

I had never considered a magazine safety as "training wheels"...fine until you get on a bike without them.
 
I wonder how much the disconnect safety of his duty gun may have led him to be complacent with regards to proper gun safety in this circumstance?
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Hopefully, it didn't influence him very much. That would mean that he was dropping the mag and relying on it to make a loaded weapon safe. That's like relying on your airbag to save you if you drive head on into a wall at 90mph.
 
What's disappointing to me is that, on another firearms-oriented forum, there are MULTIPLE members arguing that this should be considered an accident ... NOT negligence.

I actually had to bail out of the discussion to keep my blood pressure in check. I'll go back in a few minutes to see if they've come to their senses (somehow, I doubt it).
 
Mechanical failures, despite proper maintenance, can result in the almost impossible "I didn't pull the trigger, but it went off!" scenario. This kind of thing is an accidental discharge (AD).

Almost everything else is a negligent discharge (ND). The user failed to do something he should have, or did something wrong.

The dictionary may help -

neg·li·gence Noun: 1.Failure to take proper care in doing something: "some of these accidents are due to negligence".
2.Failure to use reasonable care, resulting in damage or injury to another.

So, perhaps we are really arguing about "accident without negligence" versus "accident due to negligence".

What is confusing is that the media seems to use "accident" to describe anything that was done without intent. If so, I suppose our common use of ND is an accident. It's just one with negligence as the cause. And the media may not be aware of the virtual impossibility of a true AD, and they misuse the term if they try to describe what happened.

IMO, what is incorrect is to "brush over" the negligent aspects of an incident such as this and center on the lack of intent.

Of course there wasn't intent to cause harm. That just means the term "premeditation" shouldn't be used. It doesn't mean the individual isn't a negligent fool, or that he should escape punishment.
 
All squares are rectangles, but if you ask someone to draw a rectangle, they'll almost never draw a square.

Likewise, all negligent discharges are also accidental discharges, but if you use the term "accidental discharge" with some people, it de-emphasizes any negligence that may have contributed.
 
That would mean that he was dropping the mag and relying on it to make a loaded weapon safe.
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This is a big concern of mine w mag disconnects. If all guns had them, perhaps, they'd be "safer" (I know about the concerns in a defensive use)...but if a person familiar with a mag disconnect gun comes across a traditional gun and they dont understand the difference, could be disaster, but again, if the basic rules were followed...

Too bad it happened. People need to get much more training/knowledge on firearms across the board (yes, including most gun owners).
 
That's very sad -- although with a severe head wound, she might not have had much quality of life had she survived.

This should change things. I would now expect a charge of negligent homicide to be filed.
 
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