Get a lawyer before talking to police

Status
Not open for further replies.
johnelmore said:
I respect all of the opinions and people in this forum and in general.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the issue that Frank and others are trying to explain.

You should not respect all opinions.

There are people who think the earth is flat. There are people who think Hitler was right.

Do you "respect" those opinions? I don't.

They have the right to have those opinions but when the facts speak to the exact opposite to the opinion, I do not respect the opinion.

All opinions are not equal and not all opinions deserve respect.
 
Respect and disagreement are two different concepts. While I might strongly disagree with an opinion, I will still respect the ideas and the people behind those ideas. A certain man once said to "take the high road" as you move about the message boards and in life in general. Thats the philosophy I take.

So while I might disagree with Frank and other members at times, I still respect the man and what he has to post. I would never throw his threads off, disrespect his ideas or say something untowards. The high road is the one I will take.
 
Posted by johnelmore: So while I might disagree with Frank and other members at times, I still respect the man and what he has to post.
Click to expand...
Is there anything specific regarding the handling of a self defense incident on which you disagree with Frank? If so, what is it? And what is the basis for your disagreement?
 
So while I might disagree with Frank and other members at times,
Click to expand...

You have stated many times that you disagree with Frank and the other Attorneys here on how to handle a Self Defense Shooting.

Just exactly how would you handle a situation like this.

You are attacked in a parking lot by 3 Bad Guys, one with a knife. You draw your weapon and fire, killing the bad guy with a knife. The other two BGs take off running taking the knife with them. You saw them drop the knife in a dumpster. You also notice that a couple in a red SUV saw the whole thing and are driving away.

Would you call 911? If so what would you say.

When the cops arrived, would you tell them about the knife in the dumpster, or would you say nothing?

When the cops arrived, would you tell them about the Red SUV. or would you say nothing?
 
johnelmore said:
...I feel like my thread is being thrown off base by these accusations.
Click to expand...
Why? Because some folks here are expressing disagreement with your opinion, are challenging your opinion, and explaining why your opinion is wrong and not worth serious consideration? Do you contend that just because you started a thread any opinion expressed by you is immune to criticism and challenge?

It seems that some folks toss in "It's just an opinion" as if it doesn't matter whether the opinion is right or wrong. And sometimes it really doesn't. If it's your opinion that navy blue would be a fine color to paint the north wall of your living room, it doesn't matter whether I think you're right or wrong. In fact, your opinions about matters of your taste -- what you like or don't like in food, art, decor, etc. -- are by definition right for you.

But if it's an opinion about whether that pain in your belly is indigestion, cancer, or something else, being right or wrong will matter a good deal. And in that case the opinion of your doctor is entitled to a lot more respect than that or your mechanic.

johnelmore said:
...While I might strongly disagree with an opinion, I will still respect the ideas and the people behind those ideas....
Click to expand...
You're more generous than I am.

Everyone is entitled to civility. But some opinions and ideas are not entitled to respect, and Brian gave some good examples.
 
Frank Ettin pretty well summed it up in Post 5. I wasn't going to post here until there was some question as to "credentials" of attorneys in this kind of matter.

I have over 30 years of experience practicing law. Early in my career, I was a part time federal public defender (mostly trial work), a contract attorney for our state's public defender system at the appellate level, and also assisted in a couple of major criminal prosecutions at the trial court level as a prosecutor. I currently am employed full time doing criminal appellate work and have handled numerous self-defense cases at the appellate level including several which resulted in published opinions. I just filed a brief on one self-defense case and am starting a brief on another one this afternoon. You'll have to accept this at face value because I'm not putting my name out there for someone interested in a "free" gun collection.

I only mention my "bona fides" to assure any reader that Frank's comments in this matter are solid and dovetail with my opinions as well. We have talked about this matter of remaining silent in other threads including one I started about the Salinas opinion. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527181&highlight=salinas
 
johnelmore said:
Respect and disagreement are two different concepts. While I might strongly disagree with an opinion, I will still respect the ideas and the people behind those ideas. A certain man once said to "take the high road" as you move about the message boards and in life in general. Thats the philosophy I take.

So while I might disagree with Frank and other members at times, I still respect the man and what he has to post. I would never throw his threads off, disrespect his ideas or say something untowards. The high road is the one I will take.
Click to expand...

"The High Road" in regards to conduct has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not any particular opinion is worthy of respect.

It is foundational to logic and reality that some opinions are not worthy of respect. The moon is not made of cheese. If you hold that opinion, I do not respect it.

Fact is, the holding of certain opinions will and should lead to a lack of respect for the person holding them. A person who believes that another person is inferior to them because of the color of their skin is a person who holds an opinion that is not worthy of respect and holds an opinion which makes them, the person who holds the opinion, not worthy of respect.

I can still debate or converse with that person and "take the high road" but that has nothing to do with respecting them or their opinion. I can (and would) tell them pointedly that I do not respect their opinion nor them because of their opinion and still be quite "high road".

You, what I know of you, I respect. You seem like a good guy. Hard working, American entrepreneur, etc, etc. Your opinion on legal matters, I may listen and I may wonder if you're right and I will respect your opinion unless/until I know better. If a bunch of lawyers join in and universally agree that your opinion is wrong, yet you maintain that you are not wrong and the attorneys can't be trusted to know how the law/legal system works, I will no longer respect your opinion.
 
johnelmore said:
We run a clean business, but there is so much on these trucks they can write you up for. For example a single light where the bulb has blown out. Thats a violation right there. We train the drivers to keep it cool, smile and say nothing when dealing with the patrol. Only tell the patrolman whats required and say nothing more. The patrolman appreciates it because its a more pleasant transaction all around not dealing with a verbally resistant driver. My drivers are 100% pleasant and 100% silent.
Click to expand...
Aside from the self-contradictions incorporated in this brief paragraph, there's another issue. You write that you run a "clean" business, yet you seem to accept as fact that your trucks may be hitting the road with defects. Yes, a single burned-out taillight is a minor defect, but it is a defect. And federal (and most state) commercial motor vehicle laws require that the driver inspect his/her vehicle for such defects each and every time they hit the road. For a "clean" business to be writing that "there is so much on these trucks they can write you up for" suggests that you do not require that your trucks be inspected front-to-back each day before leaving the dispatch yard (or garage, or whatever your company uses as home base). If you allow a truck to leave without being inspected, or to leave with a known defect such as a burned-out bulb ... I respectfully submit that you are not running a "clean" business, because you are not operating in compliance with clear legal requirements.
 
^^^ I wouldn't go that far^^^

I drove truck for a few years and it was always inspected before it left the yard, but there are a lot of things that can happen behind the cab that the operator is not aware of until he is pulled over by "Patrol" or he makes a scheduled stop.
 
Last edited:
I think Steve meant, "I wouldn't go that far."

And, AB, with respect, I'd tend to agree with Steve. Even with the greatest attention and best intentions a minor violation will slip through or unexpectedly show up.
 
My input....

I agree 100% with the TFL member's first remarks(topic post) but Id add a few things;
1st) A big problem that many license holders/armed citizens(not trained, armed-sworn LE officers who follow SOPs or doctrine) do not consider is what to do with the firearm. :rolleyes:
I saw a recent online video where the host advised CCW holders to unload the firearm or put it on the ground/return it to your holster. :eek:
I strongly disagree with these statements. In a high stress, chaotic event, you need to keep the firearm with you or have the wounded subject(s) covered until LE/back up can arrive. Id advise the 911 call center or LE agency dispatcher of what I look like, the basic condition & description of the wounded subject, my location(if available), if there are any witnesses-bystanders, and that I was armed. I would let the PD or patrol deputies clear the scene & decide how to treat or deal with the subject.
2) I agree that you should give basic details or information to the first responders/investigators but keep your civil rights & due process in mind.
LE officers & detectives are trained to evoke responses or gather information. To request a atty or remain silent is the best way to avoid legal hassles or problems later on. LE officers are also not required to be honest or truthful either, :rolleyes:
3) To have a lawyer or pre-paid legal services available is smart too. There are a few choices now for armed citizens & CCW license holders.
As noted, you may be formally arrested & booked into a jail or corrections complex. I can tell you it's not fun(from either side of the process ;) ) but if you are in the right & can be ready to prove your case(actions) that will help in the long run.
4) Id also advise that any armed citizens in a critical incident or lethal force event not expect any "eyewitnesses" or people who claim to know what happened to be fair, honest or able to assist you. I've seen several cases doing security work in urban areas of people recanting statements, lying, making threats, stealing or tampering with crime scene evidence, etc.
If you can, use a smart phone or DV system to document the area & record anyone near the scene. Do not touch or handle any weapons, spent cases, etc of the subject unless it's necessary to preserve it. Let the CSI techs or LE investigators process the scene unless weather or some gawker/street person wants to grab an item(yes, that does happen).

Clyde
 
The example I made with the trucks, I believe, is an excellent point. You can inspect those trucks up and down but still be missing something. The simple truth is any trooper or patrolman can find something on any truck on the road.

In that respect, you might believe what you did was the right thing in a self defense situation. You might have taken classes, been instructed by lawyers and believe that your actions conformed 100% to the law, but there might be something you missed. So you have to be incredibly careful with what you say to the police. Some individuals might be better off staying silent letting an attorney speak for them.

As for pointing out evidence, witnesses or identifying yourself that probably wont get you in any additional trouble. That is if you were totally in the right and that evidence supports it.

I have a collection of firearms. I buy no less than 5 firearms each year. I trade, collect and go out every weekend the weather is pleasant to use them for sport. I have an attorney on-call for these matters. I have a few attornies for different things from taxes to compliance to the labor law, etc. I let them handle these matters because there might be something I missed.
 
johnelmore said:
As for pointing out evidence, witnesses or identifying yourself that probably wont get you in any additional trouble. That is if you were totally in the right and that evidence supports it.
Click to expand...
One of the key points in advising folks on how to handle the police in the aftermath of a shooting is this: In many jurisdictions, SD is an affirmative defense. In other words, the burden is on the defendant to prove that the shooting really was SD. That makes it critical that the investigation start off on the right foot. That investigation starts as soon as the police arrive on scene. Unless the shooter wants to risk the police overlooking evidence or witnesses, he or she is going to have to talk to them. It's important that everyone who CCs take some time to understand how to handle that.
 
"the right foot"....

I agree in principle with the last posted comments but it's not always prudent or practical.
You will need to justify your statements or actions in a lethal force incident but you are also entitled to due process & you do not lose or suspend your civil rights.
You(as a suspect or defendant) are still innocent until proven guilty in the US legal system. :D
Yes, you do want a post-incident event to go smooth but not all criminal investigators/sworn LE are honest or fair.
One of the police investigators involved in the high profile 2012 George Zimmerman case reportedly told a well known defense atty(who he requested to have on retainer for future legal actions) that he felt "pressured" to file criminal charges in the incident.

Another more recent event in my metro area involved a patrol officer, shot & killed while on duty. The veteran officer had a DV body-cam unit but reportedly had it shut off during the incident where he was later murdered. :eek:
The cop worked in a upscale community & constantly interacted with high-profile(celebrity) residents with wealth/connections.
In my view, he might have kept the DV system cut off to avoid any scrutiny of his conduct while on duty or knowing his job could be on the line if he were caught lying, using insults/slurs, etc.

CF
 
One other important point to consider is this:

Unless the other guy immediately dies, he may very well give his *side* of the story. It could be immediately, or it could be in hours or days later. He will certainly claim to be the victim, simply minding his own business when you tried to rob him and shot him! His family will pour out of the woodwork to publicly talk about how he is a good, quiet, law abiding man. Again, reference the Zimmerman trial and how that punk Martin was made out to be an angel by the press!

Witnesses to the event, let's assume that they are neutral and the event occurs in public, will also be giving their versions. Some may not be favorable because people perceive events differently.

And often it's simply not clear what happened. Witnesses start watching at different times, have different angles, and bring differing world views to each event. For instance, if all they saw was you shoot someone, and they didn't see the other guy start the assault, then their perspective is that you simply shot a guy in the parking lot, and they may assume YOU are the assailant!

If you simply invoke immediately, you lose the initiative and a golden opportunity to tell your version first, which is very important. Again, the key is understanding what IS important to say, and understanding the law of lethal self defense. If your version was, "His music was too loud, so I told him to turn it down, and he flipped me the bird, so I shot him..." well then you're better off remaining silent, because that won't help you!"
 
Last edited:
You will need to justify your statements or actions in a lethal force incident but you are also entitled to due process & you do not lose or suspend your civil rights. You(as a suspect or defendant) are still innocent until proven guilty in the US legal system.
Click to expand...
There are always shades of gray when prosecutors and juries get involved. The memories of witnesses can get hazy, and they can be inaccurate immediately after the fact.

The advice I was given by a prominent instructor (name rhymes with "hi, you") was this:

  • That man over there...yeah...the one on the floor
  • attacked me with that weapon.
  • I was in fear for my life.
  • I used that weapon over there...yes, the one on the table.
  • That person and that person witnessed it.
  • I want to help as much as possible, but I'm really in no shape to make any further statements. I'd like to speak with an attorney. I'm sure you can understand.

Do not take the officer or detective's word that no charges will be filed. This was a crucial mistake made by Zimmerman. Contact a lawyer as soon as possible so he can help going forward.

However, helping police secure the scene and gather evidence is not only a good idea, it might help the perception that you the victim of a crime and you are doing what you can to help.
 
Spats McGee said:
One of the key points in advising folks on how to handle the police in the aftermath of a shooting is this: In many jurisdictions, SD is an affirmative defense. In other words, the burden is on the defendant to prove that the shooting really was SD. That makes it critical that the investigation start off on the right foot....
Click to expand...
And even in jurisdictions in which you don't have the burden of proof in a self defense claim, you will have the burden of production, i. e., you must be able to produce sufficient evidence to make a prima facie (on its face) case that all the elements necessary for your act of violence to have been legally justified have been satisfied. If you can not make a prima facie case, you will not get a self defense jury instruction, i. e., the jury essentially will not be told that they can find you not guilty if they found that you acted in self defense.

And remember that claiming self defense means, essentially, that you will have to admit that you intentionally threatened or committed an act of violence against another person. Once you've decided that you are going to try to avoid criminal responsibility for your act of violence by pleading self defense you no longer have the luxury of being able to waffle.

You won't be able to get away with, "I didn't do it; and if you don't believe that, it was an accident; and if you don't believe that, it was self defense." You will have to admit, "Yes, I shot the guy, and I intended to shoot him." And once you get to that point, the only way you avoid going to jail is by getting the district attorney and/or the grand jury and/or a trial jury to conclude that you were justified in shooting him.

johnelmore said:
...As for pointing out evidence, witnesses or identifying yourself that probably wont get you in any additional trouble. That is if you were totally in the right and that evidence supports it....
Click to expand...
But since as noted above a claim of self defense requires admitting your intentional act of violence, if you aren't totally in the right and/or the evidence doesn't support that claim, you will lose. What your proper handling of the aftermath of a self defense incident can do for you is better support and preserve your self defense claim. It won't buy you wiggle room.
 
Just another person that agrees with what Frank, Spats, and the other lawyers have said.

Unfortunately when dealing with legal matters, it is difficult for some to separate the emotions from what is in their best interest. Beyond the legal aspect, a lawyer will help greatly with this aspect. If one knows that he/she has trouble with the emotional aspect, I would recommend a lawyer handling most contacts with law enforcement or the courts, and following their advice on which way to proceed.

As to a lawyer just in case, there is probably a lot to be said about knowing who is a well rounded "general" lawyer in your area and keep a business card, contact info, etc in your wallet if something ever comes up.

Keep in mind, the lawyer is just an asset, pick him/her wisely, do not have unreasonable expectations, and stay within your lawyers advice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top