German po8 Luger

Interarms and Mauser lost some big bucks a while back when Mauser, with Interarms backing, obtained the Swiss tooling and resumed Luger production. Every market survey indicated an enthusiastic response to the idea and there was near universal agreement that such a gun would have an immense sale.

They did sell (I have one of each version) but in nowhere near the numbers the surveys had predicted. Typical comments were "not historical", "an original isn't much more costly", "I want one with swastikas on it", etc. In other words, it was one of those things everyone wants until it comes time to actually shell out the shekels.

On the $10, I was having some fun; even the steel would cost more today, but the original "price of the material" idea will work only if the maker works for free and doesn't count any other costs, like the price of his CNC machine. Not a great business model.

Jim
 
I always figured that the reason the Mauser Lugers didn't sell as well as they expected was because they built the wrong Luger.

Swiss pattern Lugers just don't "look right", the "handle" is wrong....

and that's those who aren't looking for the historical piece. As Max Smart used to say, "missed it by that much..." (holds up fingers just slightly apart)

The hobbyist can make anything they want, their time and tools are paid for by something else. A business has to be paid for by the product, and ALSO show a profit.

Big Difference.
 
I always figured that the reason the Mauser Lugers didn't sell as well as they expected was because they built the wrong Luger.

Swiss pattern Lugers just don't "look right", the "handle" is wrong....

and that's those who aren't looking for the historical piece. As Max Smart used to say, "missed it by that much..." (holds up fingers just slightly apart)

The hobbyist can make anything they want, their time and tools are paid for by something else. A business has to be paid for by the product, and ALSO show a profit.

Big Difference.
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I agree. In the mid 1970s I was very interested in the Interarms Mauser but just didn't like how they looked or felt. Also they sold for the same price as a pretty nice original P08. So I got an original and never looked back.

In regard to the Mitchell's Mausers stainless steel Luger - they were beautiful but I've also heard there have been problems. I didn't know they wouldn't work with standard magazines, that was a huge error on their part! I wonder if stock mags can be tweaked a bit to fit?
 
Mauser built both types, which is what I meant when I said I had both versions. The first was a copy of the Swiss pistol and didn't sell well. After receiving comments like those of 44 AMP and Quentin2, and with surveys saying that a German-type Luger would surely sell much better, Mauser changed tooling and produced a gun that was a copy of the WWII P.08. IIRC they didn't even sell as well, though I don't have the production figures in front of me.

My point is still that folks who claim they would buy this or that gun if it were only made, won't put "their money where their mouth is" when the gun is put in front of them.

Jim
 
I recently looked hard at an Interarms Parabellum.
It was a 6" 1906 pattern with grip safety. Top condition, manageable price.
The grips were nearly flat with edges beveled to the frame and it took a lot of squeeze to depress the grip safety.
It looked good but it didn't FEEL right.
Pass.
 
My stainless steel Luger isn't a Mitchel's Mauser.

its a Stoeger American Eagle Luger. Made in Huston, Texas!:D

The mag catch is just a tiny bit "off" to work with an original mag.

Otherwise, its a jewel!

ok, semi-precious stone...

but I can plink and play with a Luger, without risking my 1936 Wa Pruf S/42!
 
very interesting read and full of great information.
to hold one and shoot one is in itself a very cool experience ....a piece of history indeed,
I don't usually post to much about what I own but in this case I just can't help myself.
I own a 1914 Erfurt # matching with both mags matching, although the firing pin is a replacement (still have org.) so as to shoot it from time to time.
this was a "bring back" from the second WW.

Matt.
 
There is an article on the Luger (first of a series) in Shotgun News this week. Unfortunately, the author, when discussing how the gun actually works, blows a lot of smoke and stuff about "the Calculus", really proving that he has no idea how the Luger works. (P.S., it has nothing to do with Calculus.)

He says the U.S. testers were responsible for the change from 7.65 to 9mm; AFAIK, it was the German Army that wanted that change, not the U.S.

He also says that heat coloring (as in "straw" coloring) is also called case hardening. Not true; it might be part of a hardening of a given part, but case hardening is a different process; in fact heat coloring can remove case hardening.

Otherwise, the article is not too bad, though there is no new information.

Jim
 
The first user of 9mm P that I know of was the German Navy, 1904.
The army did not pick it up until the well known P08.
Not unusual, the navies of the world used to be the high tech service... until the air forces came along.

The US Army checked it out in 1903, though, for comparison with the 1900 .30s.

The heat color chart in Brownells shows straw as characteristic of tempering at 435 - 465 deg F.
 
He says the U.S. testers were responsible for the change from 7.65 to 9mm; ..
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Considering how much has been written, and for how long about the Luger and the history of the 9mm Parabellum, I find it rather mind boggling that someone would write something so different from the widely known history, without providing a (valid) source.

Everything I've ever seen agrees it was the German army who refused to adopt the Luger in .30 caliber.

Without some hard reference to the contrary, one wonders if the writer did even basic research.

IF so, apparently, not enough...
 
I am sure he did a lot of research, but all writers tend to fall into traps on details, often on stuff they are absolutely sure they know so they don't need to check.

The 9mm story, as far as I can determine, is kind of interesting. Luger offered the 7.65 to the German armed services (naturally). The Army requested a caliber change to 9mm. Now the 7.65 was supported ("headspaced") on its shoulder, like the rifle cartridges of the era. And Luger wanted to keep the same size base to avoid having to redesign and retool for the pistol. But when he tried to use a shoulder type case for 9mm, the shoulder was far too small to provide good case support. (There are some 9mm cases with tiny shoulders in collections , so this seems to be true.)

So how to support the case? Finally, Luger hit on the idea of supporting the case on the case mouth, which allowed him to satisfy the Army's request for a 9mm bullet in a case with the base the same size as the 7.65mm.

But that meant the case was tapered, one drawback of the 9mm for feeding; a straight case would have been better. So why not a straight case? Probably because the Army said 9mm, not 9.1mm or 9.2mm, and Luger wanted to give the Army what it asked for.

Jim
 
I've heard the 9mm Luger described as .30 Luger with shoulder blown out, but the case OAL and extractor groove are different, so clearly there's some other story behind it?
 
According to Datig, p. 75-77, the 9mm was introduced with the Model of 1902 (following the Model of 1900 in 7.65) as an attempt to get the German government to adopt the Luger. Remember, the following is from 1955:

The first modification of the original was offered in the year 1902 and was designated as the model of that year. It may be assumed that the primary motivation behind this new type was the hope of interesting the German Government to the point of adoption of the Luger.
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Datig goes on to say the first physical design change was shortening the barrel from 4-3/4" to 4", changing the rifling from 4 to 6 grooves, and introducing the "short" frames and receivers.

Then he says this:

The one other change appearing with the 1902 was probably the most important and far reaching modification developed during the complete history of the Luger. In fact, although at the time, I am certain no one realized the fantastic scope it would ultimately attain, that one modification has probably done more to change the course of the history of ALL pistols than any other since the invention of the automatic principle of firearms! There has not been a pistol or sub-machine gun manufactured since that time, or a country in the world, whose basic production and history in the field of small arms has not been radically influenced by that one seemingly, at the time, unimportant change. It was the introduction of the 9m/m Luger cartridge!
It is fairly evident that very little attention was paid to the 9m/m Luger round in 1902 or for at least 2 years thereafter as the Model 1902 was undoubtedly made in relatively small quantities. This indicates that either the 1902 left only a slight impression on the commercial market or that it was actually meant to be a semi-experimental pistol used merely for the sole purpose of introducing the 9m/m cartridge or in other ways "feeling out" the potential market. Due to the fact that the only four 1902s examined are all American Eagle models (one other 1902 has been examined which is a commercial model without engraving over the chamber) it must be surmised that this specific model was considered to be of little consequence at the time of its introduction. All four known examples of the Model 1902 encountered to date are numbered in the #22,400 to #23,400 series.
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The Model 1902 was indeed a phenomenon! At the most, possibly 1,000 of this model were produced and consequently forgotten whereas the CARTRIDGE flourished to the point where, today, it is by far the most popular and widely used handgun cartridge in the world!
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Interesting discussion. I have been shooting my P.08 more these days. It is a re-arsenalled 1941 BYF that came back through East Germany or Russia. It operates flawlessly, and is very accurate. It shows almost no wear. I'd like to think it was captured from a German officer at the eastern front, which is probably a likely scenario.

Recently, I brought it out after years of not shooting it to show a friend what Lugers were all about. I first shot my FMJ reloads through it, then some factory bulk FMJ. It performed perfectly. Then we tried a mix of flat point reloads, and factory hollow points. It again performed perfectly. I know it was designed for FMJ, but mine operates with any 9MM I use. I have thought about carrying it recently, and may do so.
 
I'm pretty much in the same place as the OP.

I have a PO8 DKM Luger manufactured in 1911 that has been in my family since prior to WWII…rarely shot,a bedside gun and car gun, mostly bedside. Several years ago I had a respected Luger smith check it over for me. He found it to be in excellent mechanical condition but only about 80% blue remaining...the upper is very good, but the grip frame is worn. No pitting. The wood is in good shape. All matching numbers except for one. Period correct magazines. Period correct holster that has been trimmed for an easier draw..probably done when the gun was purchased. Shucks. This particular smith recommended not shooting it because of possible firing pin problems with this vintage PO8. He said if I wanted to mess with a 9mm, to buy a different gun and "save" this one.

So, I have "saved" it…and still haven't bought another 9mm. I'm a revolver type of guy, but I have the itch to shoot the darn thing. Recently I had a another smith look it over and strip and clean it up for me. I asked him about shooting it. His advice…shoot it and enjoy it. He said that if it were a pristine gun he would not make that recommendation. He also said that about any 115 or 124 grain ammo would be fine. Of course no +P.

Is there any ammo that works especially well in a PO8? I still have half a box of pre-WWII ammo that I have kept with the gun. Think I'll "save" that.
 
I have a similar question. Did you get a response to your question? I have a 1920 Luger P08 Commercial pistol, but no ammunition. I would like to shoot it. Can I purchase .30 caliber ammunition at most any gun shops and sporting goods stores that will work with my P08?
 
All P08s (German military pistols) were 9mm.
Apparently, Remington used to make a small annual run of .30 Luger ammo, but I think the last factory fodder I saw was Fiocchi?
Handloading is a bit of a hassle, as the barrel groove diameter is closer to .310" than .308", so "thirty caliber" bullets are not of the ideal size. I push jacketed .311"-.312" bullets through a Lee sizing die, and they come out at the correct .309+.
 
I'm pretty much in the same place as the OP.

I have a PO8 DKM Luger manufactured in 1911 that has been in my family since prior to WWII…rarely shot,a bedside gun and car gun, mostly bedside. Several years ago I had a respected Luger smith check it over for me. He found it to be in excellent mechanical condition but only about 80% blue remaining...the upper is very good, but the grip frame is worn. No pitting. The wood is in good shape. All matching numbers except for one. Period correct magazines. Period correct holster that has been trimmed for an easier draw..probably done when the gun was purchased. Shucks. This particular smith recommended not shooting it because of possible firing pin problems with this vintage PO8. He said if I wanted to mess with a 9mm, to buy a different gun and "save" this one.

So, I have "saved" it…and still haven't bought another 9mm. I'm a revolver type of guy, but I have the itch to shoot the darn thing. Recently I had a another smith look it over and strip and clean it up for me. I asked him about shooting it. His advice…shoot it and enjoy it. He said that if it were a pristine gun he would not make that recommendation. He also said that about any 115 or 124 grain ammo would be fine. Of course no +P.

Is there any ammo that works especially well in a PO8? I still have half a box of pre-WWII ammo that I have kept with the gun. Think I'll "save" that.
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I have very good luck shooting Federal Champion Valupak 115 grain 9mm in my mixed numbers 1913 DWM P08. Using current Mec-Gar magazines I rarely have a malfunction. Pretty impressive for a 101 year old pistol! And impressive you can walk into any gun store and buy ammo for it.
 
You won't find it at Walmart or a mom & pop store, but it's out there.
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No, you won't find rare or uncommon ammo at WalMart. But you can sometimes find it at "mom & pop" stores. When you do, its usually been there a LONG time.

One Mom & Pop store/gas station I knew (basically the last place to gas up before heading into the high country) had shelves with a box of nearly every caliber known to man, including Weatherby and some African big game calibers. They would even sell individual cartridges. And more than one hunter over the years was very glad they did.

The mom & pops often have stuff you just won't find on the shelves anywhere else. You just can't count on finding a specific thing at a specific place when you need it. ;)

Check out the old mom & pop hardware stores too. One place I found a 25rnd box of Win 12ga 00 Buckshot. Had been there so long, dust on the box, and the marked price was little more than a new 5rnd box at Walmart. And, the old boy gladly sold it to me for the marked price! Tough to beat that!

Back to Lugers, the old lugers were set up to eat a 124gr @1050fps. That was the original 9mm loading. Most seem ok with the 115gr @1150fps, which later became the standard load. I wouldn't run anything else through an old Luger, no point to it.
 
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