German po8 Luger
- Thread starter bitttorrrent
- Start date
44 AMP said:
Actually, the term/name "Luger" is an anachronism, used mostly in the US.
The original toggle-top pistole is properly called a "Parabellum".
"Luger" is a trademarked name, owned by Stoeger - who both stamped their imported Parabellums with the "Luger" brand, and also offered a toggle-top .22 autoloader so stamped (which only superficially resembles the Parabellum.
I agree that the Erma, Mitchell & 1970's Mauser toggletops should also be included with parabellum clones.
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I need to split a couple hairs on this.
I believe the original toggle top pistol is properly called a Borchardt.
Luger named his redesign of the Borchardt the "Parabellum".
Luger is the common name used in the US, and I suppose it might be called an anachronism.
Stoeger still owns the rights to the trade name "Luger". I have a couple of their .22s, and a stainless steel P.08 with Stoeger and Luger marked on it.
I would not call the 1970s Mauser Swiss pattern "Lugers" a clone. Reintroduced limited production would probably be the most accurate as it was one of the original manufacturers, and I understand they used at least some of the original tooling, which they got back from the Swiss, to make them. A small matter, really.
7,65mm Parabellum, 9mm Parabellum are correct, and proper, but you know how sloppy we are in casual conversation (and sometimes not so casual), so its "Luger" in the US, for better or worse. That is changing for the 9mm, its less and less the 9mm Luger and more and more the 9mm Para(bellum), 9x19, or 9mm NATO.
Still only seeing .30 Luger on US made ammo though that may change eventually, too....
You are right, the proper name is the Parabellum, unless, its a P.08, in which case that would also be correct.
If you talk to folks (in the US) who are not already some degree of enthusiast, and say Parabellum or P.08 they often get confused, but if you say Luger, they have at least an idea what you are talking about.
So, how bad is it when somebody says "I want a clip to fit my Luger"?
I believe the original toggle top pistol is properly called a Borchardt.
Luger named his redesign of the Borchardt the "Parabellum".
Luger is the common name used in the US, and I suppose it might be called an anachronism.
Stoeger still owns the rights to the trade name "Luger". I have a couple of their .22s, and a stainless steel P.08 with Stoeger and Luger marked on it.
I would not call the 1970s Mauser Swiss pattern "Lugers" a clone. Reintroduced limited production would probably be the most accurate as it was one of the original manufacturers, and I understand they used at least some of the original tooling, which they got back from the Swiss, to make them. A small matter, really.
7,65mm Parabellum, 9mm Parabellum are correct, and proper, but you know how sloppy we are in casual conversation (and sometimes not so casual), so its "Luger" in the US, for better or worse. That is changing for the 9mm, its less and less the 9mm Luger and more and more the 9mm Para(bellum), 9x19, or 9mm NATO.
Still only seeing .30 Luger on US made ammo though that may change eventually, too....
You are right, the proper name is the Parabellum, unless, its a P.08, in which case that would also be correct.
If you talk to folks (in the US) who are not already some degree of enthusiast, and say Parabellum or P.08 they often get confused, but if you say Luger, they have at least an idea what you are talking about.
So, how bad is it when somebody says "I want a clip to fit my Luger"?
spacecoast
New member
It seems like this thread could use a pic or two. I recently became a Lugerphile (x4) when an elderly relative sold me what her deceased husband collected many years ago. She also provided copies of Datig and Jones, two of the early pioneers of classifying and collecting Lugers.
Upper left is a 1908 Bulgarian contract DWM, below that is a 192x alphabet commercial. On the right are two shooters, one is a refinished 1920/1918 DWM and the other is a mixed-parts Erfurt. The commercial is a 7.65mm, the others are 9mm.
The fit and finish of these guns is pretty amazing. An old article I read estimated there were more than 600 separate machining operations involved in crafting a P.08 IIRC.
Upper left is a 1908 Bulgarian contract DWM, below that is a 192x alphabet commercial. On the right are two shooters, one is a refinished 1920/1918 DWM and the other is a mixed-parts Erfurt. The commercial is a 7.65mm, the others are 9mm.
The fit and finish of these guns is pretty amazing. An old article I read estimated there were more than 600 separate machining operations involved in crafting a P.08 IIRC.
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Just some bits of info.
The word "Parabellum" is from the Latin phrase "Si vis pacem para bellum", meaning "If you want peace, be prepared for war." It was used by Deutsche Waffen-und Munitions Fabriken (German Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers) as a cable address, in the early 1900's. In those days, a cable address was used to eliminate the need to transmit a long address. Just "Parabellum Berlin" - no need for a street address, the cable company knew it, or the company itself had a telegraph office. It was, in a sense, the late 19th and early 20th century equivalent of a URL.
DWM had made the Borchardt and was the original maker of the Luger, so they gave their new pistol the name which, by that time, had become the company motto. Whether Georg Luger played any role in the selection of the name "Parabellum", I don't know; probably it came from the marketing department. Later, they called their machinegun by that name also.
P.08 or Pistole 1908 is the German army designation, from the date of adoption, like "Model 1911" is for the U.S. pistol. The German Navy called it the P.06 because they had adopted it two years earlier.
In spite of widespread interest, and some adoption, outside Germany, the design proved ultimately to be a dead end. Efforts were made after WWII to revive it as a commercial proposition but, in spite of much ado and many people claiming that they would buy a new Luger, Mauser and Interarms took a bath on the new production gun. A good lesson for those thinking of entering the gun business not to believe the "sure I will buy one" crowd unless they are willing to come up with firm, cash orders.
The name Luger is commonly used in the U.S. both because it was trademarked by Stoeger but also because the ammunition was so designated by SAAMI, so the "official" name in this country is "Luger."
Jim
The word "Parabellum" is from the Latin phrase "Si vis pacem para bellum", meaning "If you want peace, be prepared for war." It was used by Deutsche Waffen-und Munitions Fabriken (German Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers) as a cable address, in the early 1900's. In those days, a cable address was used to eliminate the need to transmit a long address. Just "Parabellum Berlin" - no need for a street address, the cable company knew it, or the company itself had a telegraph office. It was, in a sense, the late 19th and early 20th century equivalent of a URL.
DWM had made the Borchardt and was the original maker of the Luger, so they gave their new pistol the name which, by that time, had become the company motto. Whether Georg Luger played any role in the selection of the name "Parabellum", I don't know; probably it came from the marketing department. Later, they called their machinegun by that name also.
P.08 or Pistole 1908 is the German army designation, from the date of adoption, like "Model 1911" is for the U.S. pistol. The German Navy called it the P.06 because they had adopted it two years earlier.
In spite of widespread interest, and some adoption, outside Germany, the design proved ultimately to be a dead end. Efforts were made after WWII to revive it as a commercial proposition but, in spite of much ado and many people claiming that they would buy a new Luger, Mauser and Interarms took a bath on the new production gun. A good lesson for those thinking of entering the gun business not to believe the "sure I will buy one" crowd unless they are willing to come up with firm, cash orders.
The name Luger is commonly used in the U.S. both because it was trademarked by Stoeger but also because the ammunition was so designated by SAAMI, so the "official" name in this country is "Luger."
Jim
kilimanjaro
New member
I've heard it would cost $3,000 in machining and tooling work to make and assemble a Luger today, so that's certainly one reason it's not going to make a comeback.
I recall back in the 1960's a writer said the Mauser C96 couldn't be made for less than $2,000. In today's dollars that's about 8 grand or more.
Lugers and Broomhandles are a bargain, given what they cost today.
I recall back in the 1960's a writer said the Mauser C96 couldn't be made for less than $2,000. In today's dollars that's about 8 grand or more.
Lugers and Broomhandles are a bargain, given what they cost today.
Of course those figures are based on "if they made them the same way as they did back then." Today, with good casting and MIM parts, they would be cheaper. But then, they wouldn't be Lugers or Mausers or whatever, they would be cheap copies that no one would buy. IMHO, the folks who want to "bring back" the Mauser C96, or the Luger, or the Colt Paterson, or the M1903 Colt hammerless are not likely to get their wish unless they can get a whole bunch of folks with cash in their hot little hands to sign on.
The hard fact is that the demand isn't there and the designs are complex enough that no company it its right collective mind would bet the factory that people will buy a century old design just on a nostalgia kick. Especially when plenty of originals are still around at reasonable prices.
Jim
The hard fact is that the demand isn't there and the designs are complex enough that no company it its right collective mind would bet the factory that people will buy a century old design just on a nostalgia kick. Especially when plenty of originals are still around at reasonable prices.
Jim
A guy with a CNC mill and proper dimensions could make a C96 for the price of the materials. Today, the problem is coming up with "drawings" for a given gun.
While Vltor has been diddling around with reengineering the Bren Ten for five years, a guy wrote the necessary programs and has made Bren Ten frames and slides in his basement. A buddy of mine who works in aerospace has toyed with making a 1911 on his lunch hour, as the CAD work has already been done and is available on the internet.
While Vltor has been diddling around with reengineering the Bren Ten for five years, a guy wrote the necessary programs and has made Bren Ten frames and slides in his basement. A buddy of mine who works in aerospace has toyed with making a 1911 on his lunch hour, as the CAD work has already been done and is available on the internet.
Nothing personal, but I never cease to be amused by folks saying that "with modern machines" gun X could be made for $2.00 and sell for $200.00" or something like that.
OK, so why is no one doing that? A manufacturer's license is not that expensive, and if that kind of money can be made that easily, why are gun companies still making guns basically the old fashioned way?
Jim
OK, so why is no one doing that? A manufacturer's license is not that expensive, and if that kind of money can be made that easily, why are gun companies still making guns basically the old fashioned way?
Jim
Doing something in your spare time, or with your spare millions, is a lot different than operating a business at a profit. The buddy I referred to works for an aerospace manufacturer with a shop full of machines, computers, etc. that cost millions of dollars, but they make "$600 toilet seats" rather than guns. Probably a much better return on their investment.
Colt is still using some machinery from WWI and WWII, it's probably been paid-off, so continuing to use that equipment is "free". Buying new CNC equipment to replace it is expensive. That's probably why they still do a lot of their manufacturing very much like they were doing it decades ago.
1920 Commercial "shooter".
Spent case is visible in this one:
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But surely if "a guy with a CNC mill and proper dimensions could make a C96 for the price of the materials." and someone in aerospace could "make a 1911 on his lunch hour", a business should be highly profitable. While I doubt that there is a huge market for C96 clones, surely one made for under $10 should sell at enough to make the project enormously successful.
Jim
Jim
No, I am being practical. If turning out guns were as simple as you say it is, a lot more companies would be doing so, and we would have top quality repros of those old timers available at bargain prices. The fact is that many people SAY they would buy a newly made C96, or Colt pocket model, or Luger, or whatever, but if copies were offered to them they would object that the guns are "not original" and not wanted.
Here is my challenge. Find capital and set up a business. Make a good copy of the C96 for under $500 retail, and I promise to buy one. If you choose to copy the Colt Model M or the Luger, same deal. But no vaporwear or statements that someone somewhere somehow can make such and such for ten bucks (the cost of materials); make it, and I'll buy it. If it costs $10, you make $490 profit.
Jim
Here is my challenge. Find capital and set up a business. Make a good copy of the C96 for under $500 retail, and I promise to buy one. If you choose to copy the Colt Model M or the Luger, same deal. But no vaporwear or statements that someone somewhere somehow can make such and such for ten bucks (the cost of materials); make it, and I'll buy it. If it costs $10, you make $490 profit.
Jim
James, I think you ought to price 4 point carbon steel these days, you aren't gonna make any gun out of $10 worth of steel today.
Other than that, I agree.
And I did buy a Luger year before last. NIB, made of stainless steel. 9mm, faithful execution of the P.08. And as I later learned, just enough off "spec" that other Luger magazines won't work.
And no, it wasn't $500, more like twice that...
So it isn't that there's NO market, just that isn't much of one....
Other than that, I agree.
And I did buy a Luger year before last. NIB, made of stainless steel. 9mm, faithful execution of the P.08. And as I later learned, just enough off "spec" that other Luger magazines won't work.
And no, it wasn't $500, more like twice that...
So it isn't that there's NO market, just that isn't much of one....