German P38

My uncle brought a P38 home from the war. He came across a crashed plane and took the pistol and holster from the pilot. The pilots name was inside the lap of the holster. A well made pistol with excellent balance.
 
could you please help me identify this P38

Hi everyone,
sorry for the necrobumps
But I just came across this P38 which I would like to learn more about.
All I know about it - 1941 model. Taken off a dead German on the eastern front. And it sais "GOTT MIT UNS" on the left side of the slide.
I couldn't find any info about this particular gun.

I hope any of you could have any idea what makes this guy any more special than other P38's.

TkR4pQh


http://imgur.com/TkR4pQh

With best regards
Igor
 
Certainly not a standard marking on a gun, it was very common on German armor going back to the 17th century. By WWII, the main place to put it was on the belt buckle. I have not seen it on a pistol before, but it was a common sentiment of the Germans and other empires who thought their religion was best.
 
Thanx for the reply Jim!
Well yes, I do know quite a bit about all that German ideology, "GOTT MIT UNS" (god is with us) was a standard Wermacht marking on, as you already mentioned, belt buckles, knives, clothing etc. SS soldiers usually had the "Meine Ehre heisst Treue" (my honor is called loyalty). Please excuse my English, I am a native Russian speaker.
There were also mottos like "Alles fur Deutschland" (everything for Germany).
But I've never seen a single weapon with any of those markings.
That caught my attention.

Well, hopefully there are people on this forum who maybe have seen similar pistols, as it was a neat trophy among GI's of all nations.

cheers!
 
Looks like the Soldat who had that was a patriot. I've seen carved grip panels and such, but not an engraved slide, except on souvenirs gussied up post-war.

I would think this may have been a presentation piece, or a very personal sidearm, either way, it's distinctive, nicely done, and a benign motto, as opposed to say, interlinked swastikas or something. Given that, it's going to add considerably to the value. I can see that pistol selling for $750 or more here in the US, where an ordinary 1941 pistol would sell for $450-$500.

Matching numbers and condition still count.
 
Given that, it's going to add considerably to the value.
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Actually, I don't see that as a given, at all. Yes, it appears well done, and politically "neutral" (unlike Nazi logos), but it is an uncommon (and undocumented) alteration to the standard issue gun.

It may have been done as a presentation piece that never got presented...

OR, it may have been done in '46 by unemployed engraver Otto von Starving for a loaf of bread, tin of butter and half a carton of smokes....to "purrty up" something a GI won in a poker game.,..

A serious collector, looking for "proper" wartime condition wouldn't pay a premium for that engraving UNLESS there was documentation proving it was something "officially" done. A lot of wartime guns got engraved, even chromed in post war Germany, to please their GI owners. Quality work was available and dirt cheap.

SO, I don't think you can count on the engraving adding much, if anything to the value of the piece, and possibly the opposite.

I could be wrong, of course, it might be worth a boatload of money to the right guy, but I think if you get anything more than what a good condition "unaltered" period P.38 is worth, it's a bonus.
 
No P.38's were factory plated, and none were issued with black grips. (Check the inside of the grips; you might find the trademark "Franzite", indicating an American made copy.)
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If you're speaking of WWII era P-38's I have to respectfully disagree on the grips. Returning from Italy at the tail end of that war, my father brought home, a p-38 with black grip panels. Though I can't say with certainty what the material is, definitely not wood and defiantly black in color.
 
Great seeing this forum is active! Thanx for the answers everyone.

I have seen this gun and I am already purchasing it, getting the paperwork done.

I can't call myself an expert, but the finish on that P38 looks very very realistic. I also was suspecting a fake here, a lot, especially considering it's purchase.
We went to the range, I fired it a few times, it jammed twice within like 20 rounds (I believe its due to magazine spring). I looked at it very carefully, I even smelled it :) (smelled quite eveil), has all the inspection marks (eagle over 135, eagle over swastika etc etc). Frame and slide # matching.
The engraving - it looks very genuine. I mean, if it is a fake - than it is one heck of it as it looks flawless.

Grip is made of bakelite (first type of plastic ever) the Reich came up with it, light and durable, state of the ark material back than.
Most of the P38, either Walther or Mauser made were bakelite gripped. Meaning it was a service pistol, made for action not museums. Presentation model would have had a walnut grip or some other fancy wood.
But it's only what I guess.

One little update, it was taken in Satlingrad arround late 1943. So presumingly it was in active service for 2 years.
It's only what I've been told.

Is there any known way to check the serial number (7427)? Maybe there are any archives or anything?
 
I would think that in Russia, pistols captured at Stalingrad are as common there as pistols captured from German colonels are over here, i.e., a good story to go along with the pistol.

As far as archives go, most of an army was captured at Stalingrad, so unless there was a duplicate form filed with the clerks in Berlin or someplace, and later moved to the west side of the country, I will bet all records are long gone or not to be retrievable.

Enjoy your new pistol, it's certainly worth acquiring.
 
The engraving - it looks very genuine. I mean, if it is a fake - than it is one heck of it as it looks flawless.
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The engraving is there, its not a fake, its real engraving, right? ;)

Claims that the engraving means some thing, is where the "fake" can come in.

Faked proof, acceptance, unit markings, etc, have been done on Lugers, to make a common variant seem to be a more rare and valuable one. Tis fraud, but some do it, and its something to watch out for.

On a P.38? Not so much, I am thinking.

What you have, appears to me to be a 3rd Reich pistol that was professionally engraved after it was no longer in the possession of the 3rd Reich. Doesn't change the usefulness or value as a shooter, It may add to the value to someone but not everyone. In other words, Ja, its nice, but I wouldn't pay any extra because of it.

I am unsure about the P.38, (will have to check resources) but I know that Luger serial#s ran in blocks, and started over (with an added letter) when the block was used up during the year's production.

Possible it was captured at Stalingrad, possible it was at any other location during the war, also. Might have come from a shot down pilot, or a panzermann an officer or an NCO,...

Records? Anything surviving from the 6. Armee will be in former Soviet hands, and the factory records? Maybe, if they weren't destroyed or lost in the bombing and combat that was the end of Nazi Germany. Some did survive, many did not.

Proving the gun was at Stalingrad is unlikely, but might not be impossible. Won't be easy or simple IF it can be done, though.

Looks like a nice P.38 with an embellishment from a former owner. Congrats!
 
FWIW, that "Gott Mit Uns" pistol appears to have been heavily buffed and reblued when or before the marking was added. The marking appears to have been etched (or rather the area around the words was etched, leaving the lettering in high relief), a relatively common form or marking in Europe, less so in the US. (The Walther PP/PPK factory markings were etched, not stamped or engraved.)

"Gott mit uns" was not, of course, a Wehrmacht motto; it dated back centuries and was on the standard German/Prussian issue belt buckle before WWI.

I very much doubt that any German soldier or low ranking officer could have gotten away with having his issue weapon embellished like that, even with a patriotic motto. Not knowing the state of pistol collecting in Russia, I can only wonder if the marking might have been added at some later time in an attempt to add value to the pistol. In the U.S., it was fairly common for fake "H Gorring" or "Adolph Hittler" markings to be put on ex-German guns after the war in an attempt to pass an ordinary gun off as something very valuable..

Jim
 
Thank you everyone for your opinions.
A couple of remarks:
- I am getting this gun from a grandson of a simple Ukranian ww2 vet. Getting it for arround 370$. Well 350 Euros. Not much. lol
He is no collector or reseller, just runs a small cargo business and said he simply doesn't want any weapons around the house and is not an antiques shop to chase prices. Just wants to get rid of it for some profit. Knows almost nothing about this gun.
- As stated before, I am no expert, but I do own a couple of firearms. Glock 17 (never leave home without it :), Tula Tokarev, aka TT (ww2 models as well), not mentioning all the guns me and my father fired along my childhood, as he used to co-own a small gun store. Anything form the smallest Beretta models to an AKM or Ak-47, Saiga (mainly USSR guns). I believe, although not being any major historian or gunsmith, I could tell if the gun was refinished. And this gun doesn't look anything like refinished at all. As a matter of fact the inscription, font, quality looks so genuine and accurate that really doubt it was made anywhere outside a specialized factory.
- Back in the day, Soviet Union was nothing organized like any other country who would issue to their GI certificates for captured weapons they would want to keep, put a nice little stamp on it. No. You just pick it up, put it in your pocket as it is and take it home if you're lucky enough to come get there in one piece. We really do have tons of unregistered WW2 firearms, from both sides. Literally canned in jars with pork grease for decades. I personally saw a person selling those TT and Makarov pistols, canned in pork grease, 1 litre jars. It was a way to hide it form the law authorities and preserve it. he would also ask you if you want a post- or a war model. Brand new or used but with some history. What a dude that was :)
- Now, if thinking like someone who want so make an extra buck out of this gun, I would engrave something more common on it. Especialy considering the quality, that had to cost me, so I would have put something more eyecathing on that gun. Assuming it was a little customized after the war, it would been made for a collector who, most likely would know at least something about these pistols.
I'm having hard time expressing my self, but I hope everone got the idea I am trying to share here :)
And also, excuse me this story which is probably too long.

To be honest I am almost 100% sure it is an original engraving, made for some particular person or purpose back in the day at the factory.
Just trying to figure out what for or for who?
 
Flammen,

Not looking to argue. Believe as you choose.
There are still folks over here who believe their nickel plated
(insert the captured Axis pistol of your choice here) trophy was done at the factory as well.

I own quite a few AC - American capture - P.38s and have read on them from articles during the War to present.

1,140,000 to 1,200,000 made during the war is a number range most agree on.

Of those one million plus P.38s, yours would be the FIRST discovered that was made at the factory with engraving.

That is including those taken from the Walther factory museum when elements from our
American 3rd army captured the Walther factory (and Museum where P.38 No. 01 was displayed) relatively intact.

I would need to see better detail with photos in natural light,
but honestly, the blued finish on the gun (from your photo) looks both
too even colored and dull, especially on a 1941 Walther, and so I would be suspect of it's originality.

I cannot make out the letter font that is following the serial number.
In a previous post, you mention the gun as having eagle/135 acceptance stamps.
The E/135 stamps were assigned to, and used EXCLUSIVELY by Mauser at it facilities.

NO ac41 marked slide would be correct with those stamps on it and a frame with E/135
would be a mis-match to the ac41 slide, regardless of the obviously re-numbered serial number.

I also would point out that the serial number number fonts do
not seem to be the same between the frame and slide.

There were some German sympathizers in the Ukraine during the War, so maybe the pistol was done for one
of them and kept hidden from non-sympathetic Russian occupiers until the Soviet break-up fifty years later.
My best guess anyway.

I think that the pistol's engraving is tastefully done and that it should serve
well as a reminder of the turbulent War years.
I just don't think it was originally made that way.

JT
 
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JT-AR-MG42,
I couldn't disagree with you, I am still very suspicious about it too.
As I don't have it yet, I will upload more of that guns pictures so we can look at it closer.
Anyways, thanks for the info, I did not buy it yet.

But, you know, we could only guess. As WW2, especially Nazi Germany, hides so many mysteries and secrets, which no one would ever know about.

Anyways, thanx, and as I said, I will post some more pictures of it. Better quality so we could have a closer look.

cheers
 
'No P.38's were factory plated, and none were issued with black grips. (Check the inside of the grips; you might find the trademark "Franzite", indicating an American made copy.)"

Sorry, James, but not correct about the black grips.

Mausers in 1944 used black grips for a period of time, apparently after the factory that made earlier brown reddish-brown grips was destroyed in bombing raids.

Standard production grips from about 1940 through 1944 were often so dark brown as to look black.

The classic red/brown grips were generally mid-war.
 
It is a CYQ model
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I know AC is the code for Walther. I cannot recall (and don't have my references at the moment) which one CYQ is, but I'm sure its not Walther.

Isn't "byf" Mauser and "cyq" Spreewerke? (or do I have that backwards??)

If it is Mauser, then Mauser WaA Pruf would be correct.

While I tend to think more of the US side of things, your pistol could well be the Soviet counterpart.

Meaning, it might have been engraved, by a skilled EAST German after the war, to please some Soviet occupation troop, perhaps so he could sell it for a few more rubles to a simple Ukrainian soldier....

Lots of things are possible, but the slide being engraved Gott Mit Uns at the factory during the war, seems to be the least likely possibility at this time.
 
FWIW, the WaffenAmt team chief at Walther was assigned the number 359. 135 was at Mauser during the P.38 production period.

Jim
 
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