Gas & guns

progunner1957: "A few years ago, I noticed a steady upward climb in food prices at the grocery store that went on for several months. It seemed like the High Mucketymucks on the board of directors at all the grocery chains experienced a revelation, to wit:
"People have got to eat - we have 95% plus of all the food - therefore, we got 'em by the short curlies so we'll set prices at whatever we want to. What are people going to do about it?" The answer is - bend over and take it!"

Just for the record, supermarkets have one of the lowest profit margins of any industry. Competition is fierce, and the supermarkets only make up for such low margins by selling quantity.
 
Gas prices

Our local prices jumped 72 cents today with the New Orleans disaster and it's rumored to be going up another 25 cents tomorrow. That will put it at $3.85 per gallon. I just heard on the radio it's at $5/ gal in Atlanta. It has become a financial crisis for many people in a matter of only a few days. Care to guess what heating oil might cost this winter? Natural Gas? LPG?
 
Rebar

a truly free market is based on supply and demand.

The imported oil that we use has artificial production quotas set up to maintain the price.

The oil companies say they budget money for exploration and extraction. I say they pretty much know where everything is..lol

Standard Oil was Broken into 34 seperate companies after being found guilty of violating antitrust laws.

How many oil companies are there now?

Exxon-Mobil
Chevron Texaco
Shell Texaco
BP-Amaco

The oil industry is dominated by Exxon-Mobil, Shell, and BP. Exxon-Mobil is the worlds largest energy company now.

There are numerous small companies but they are nothing compared to the big ones.



I like how when I present stuff you resort to the name calling

left wing socialist, ect......

The 103 U.S. nuclear power plants are licensed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to operate for 40 years, and can renew their licenses for an additional 20 years. To date, 35 have received license renewal and 39 more are expected to have their licenses renewed. Eventually, virtually all U.S. nuclear plants are expected to apply for license renewal. "

tree hugger really messing with nuclear energy it appears :eek:

I would suggest that the tree huggers are simply a myth trotted out for a smokescreen. If you are raking in record profits why would you want to invest in more facilities and incur debts?

so when is free trade actually free trade?

how about some facts instead of names?
 
IMO, there is a useful role for regulation to play in pricing of things like energy. Most clearly, for electricity, there typically is only one supplier available to a consumer - so at the level of the consumer, *there is no free market*. Therefore, the government acts as a watchdog, not setting prices, but reviewing and approving requests for price increases from the utility companies.

Right now, the government does not to my knowledge participate in pricing policies for oil and gas. Excessive profit taking might signal some form of price fixing or collusion (real world departures from free market), whether or not it can actually be proven. While higher prices can be relieved by adjustments in the usage by consumers (driving less/taking bus/buy more efficient car)... they don't have infinite capacity to do that (nor do trucking/bus/rail companies), and transportation is truely requisite for modern life.

In theory, a free market should prevent abuses of pricing, by some providers having incentive to undercut average pricing so as to increase sales volume, if the result would be beneficial. In practice, the idealized model isn't always realized though.
 
Ouch!

I filled up last night at $2.70 and this morning it was $3.00. :eek: Whatever the reasons--greed, Mother Nature, etc., I am probably going to have to give up my second job because I can't afford to drive 180 miles on a weekend for minimum wage. Sad part, it is my job at the gun shop...no more discounts on "goodies" and a lot less shooting. I also need the job more than ever to pay for the gas. What's a person to do???? BTW, I do not have a "gas guzzler". I am ticked!!!!! :mad:
 
The imported oil that we use has artificial production quotas set up to maintain the price.
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If OPEC has an oil quota, I don't see how American/UK based oil companies are to be blamed for that.
The oil companies say they budget money for exploration and extraction. I say they pretty much know where everything is..lol
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Are you an oil-exploration expert? I think I'd trust the oil company a lot more than you, if not. If you think you can run an oil company better then the folks doing so now, please feel free to start one.
How many oil companies are there now?
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Enough to keep it from being a monopoly.
I like how when I present stuff you resort to the name calling
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Is it name calling? Some people are proud to be socialists. We even have a socialist in the congress, Bernie Sanders. If you don't like to be called a socialist, then stop talking like one.
tree hugger really messing with nuclear energy it appears
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When was the last new nuclear or oil refinery built in the US?
so when is free trade actually free trade?
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When prices reflect market pressures, as I outlined but you ignored.
 
The oil companies say they budget money for exploration and extraction. I say they pretty much know where everything is..lol
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Well, I think there still is room for R&D in oil beyond just locating deposits, but I agree that "big oil" probably does know where all significant deposits lie, except in the deep ocean. There's only one earth, and they and other geologic researchers have been at that same task of mapping fossil fuel formations with increasingly sophisticated technology, for more than a century.

Big oil and big pharma definitely do make big profits - no denying that. As far as industries that produce anything, they are the top of the heap. I work in pharma and have interviewed at oil R&D locations (you get a good look at what they are about in a company visit) and have friends there. All you need to do is either to look at business analysis for investors in these areas to get a good clear picture, or heck, just visit one of their facilities to see that there is money to be made in these two industries. By that I don't mean the size of the facilities, so much as the architecture, construction quality, and the embellishments. Any scientist knows salaries are the best in these two industries too.

Of course, profits, in and of themselves are not wrong - that's what business is supposed to do! To me, though, you also need to look out for the well-being of the American people as a whole, and ensure that they are not suffering so that a few can profit. If there is any price fixing or collusion going on, the Feds should kick some heinies and put a stop to it. And if the overall economy is (eventually) going to suffer because of excessive pricing in an essential and ubiqitous product or service, then the Feds should step in and adjust matters, even if the industry is just charging what they can get, IMHO.
 
The 103 U.S. nuclear power plants
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That sounds like a lot, until you consider that is 2 per state.

We had a plant being built in my hometown back in the 80's. The #1 reason it was not completed? Opposition from residents. NIMBY's.

What's a person to do????
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Sorry to be blunt, but you took the minimum wage job that appears to be either 45 or 90 miles away from home. Unless you live in the complete middle of nowhere, there is probably minimum wage jobs closer if you really need the money. As it appears that you took the job because of your hobby, then to me it really is no different than someone complaining that they can't afford to drive their boat.

If there is any price fixing or collusion going on, the Feds should kick some heinies and put a stop to it.
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No, the people should be made known of it, and let them make the decision to boycot the companies involved. The problem is that people don't want to be inconveninced to boycott something, and just want the gov't to deal with it.
 
Refusing to buy fuel in general will most likely not work. I know that I will continue to drive, and really wouldn't be able to convince many people that I know of to ride bicycles or take public transportation. However, I do follow another plan that I heard of not too long ago.

The idea is simple. Refuse to fuel up at the largest/most profitable gasoline companies. In my area, Sunoco and BP seem to be at the top of the list. I always get gas at Marathon. I've been able to convince several of my friends to do the same. I think the main idea, regardless, is for everyone to refuse to fuel at the same company.

This way, Sunoco or BP will suffer in sales while we all continue to drive as usual, so it's little aggrivation to us to make sure we stop at a smaller station. Eventually, the more profitable companies will realize that they have to lower prices to try to attract people.

It'd be nice if this would work, or we could hold out till those stations reached a reasonable price, rather than running to them as soon as they dropped a bit below the competition. Anyways, whether it works or not, at least I passed the word on. No harm in giving it a try.
 
Price-fixing and collusion are illegal, for good reason. Here's a primer from the US Department of Justice on "Price Fixing, Bid Rigging, and Market Allocation Schemes":
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Those are serious accusations, do you have even a shred of evidence to indicate any of those?
 
At 30, I decided to go back to school full-time. So money is already an issue. Fore-seeing this, what did I do? ;) I bought a motorcycle...3.5 gallons---150(town) to 220(Hwy) miles... Bite me Exxon....
 
Those are serious accusations, do you have even a shred of evidence to indicate any of those?
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I take it you are referring not to price fixing being illegal as you quoted me there, but to the idea that they might be going on?

If so, I cannot *prove* that they are going on - after all, even as the DOJ writes:
Antitrust violations are serious crimes that can cost a company hundreds of millions of dollars in fines and can send an executive to jail for up to three years. These conspiracies are by their nature secret and difficult to detect
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So I am not categorically asserting that they *are* going on. If you look at what I said:
Excessive profit taking might signal some form of price fixing or collusion (real world departures from free market), whether or not it can actually be proven.
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Which means I *suspect* they are going on. Why? Because oil profits are at record levels - plain fact. That is in and of itself not proof, but it sure as heck is a red flag. A free market, if it exists, should keep prices in check by competition among providers.

In pharma, for example, when a company posts record profits, it's because they have just come out with a proprietary new product that is protected by patent. For the duration of the patent, they effectively have a monopoly on that product, and as a result noone else can directly at least, compete with them, and so if it's worthwhile, they can sell at big prices and ring up huge profits. After the drug goes off patent, it becomes a commodity, and the other drugmakers compete to offer it also, driving prices down dramatically (often by 80% for a blockbuster).

Gasoline isn't patented though. Everyone's selling the same thing, and it's a commodity - has been for a century. In commodity markets, providers should be competing on price. Where is that competition? If it exists, why are the big oil companies racking up record profits? Not proof, but something smells here.

And if you look at my posts, you'll see that I indicate that raw materials pricing is responsible for the bulk of current gasoline prices. However, I also note that record profits by oil companies indicate that they are doing *more* than just passing along costs.

I don't care if the oil companies are offended. Won't hurt a bit if the Feds look into them and try to see what is going on.
 
Hal, you left out the cumulative effects of the greenies' successful efforts to prevent new oil refineries from going online, to prevent coalbed methane development and to prevent further oil exploration and development in CONUS and Alaska.

Plus it would be harder for the oil companies to reap exceisve profits if the greenies hadn't prevented the natural growth of independent industry competition. Much harder to get new environmental certifications if you're a junior producer than to keep old ones if you're a megaproducer.
 
Upset about oil pricing? Wondering if anything fishy is going on?

If anyone else might like to ask the gubment to look into oil company pricing, you can write the Department of Justice at:
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov

And I am not sure if he has any jurisdiction in this matter, but a gentleman named Eliot Spitzer has been waging a war on corruption as NY State's Attorney General, and has had fantastic success in numerous industries, including pharmaceuticals, insurance, mutual funds, investment banking. One of the good guys. You can copy him with your letter sent to DOJ here:
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/online_forms/email_ag.jsp
 
However, I also note that record profits by oil companies indicate that they are doing *more* than just passing along costs.
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So, you're saying that the mere fact that they're making "too much" profit (as defined by you) means that it's likely criminal activities are going on?
 
wingman,

I am sure you are right. It will take awhile to find what we want. Probably look on the used market first. A friend told me he had looked into one of the hybrids and there was a waiting list for them. If they are in that high of demand the dealers won't come down any on price. I just need to work more on getting my wife to let me have a scooter.

p230
 
Rebar

saying that its the liberals and tree huggers faults is the same as insert the generic "They" into a blank.

last time I looked we had a Republican President and both houses of Congress controlled by the Republicans...hardly a tree hugger friendly zone.
Plus all of those "Red" states dont look like a tree hugger friendly zone.

My point with the nuclear plants all being relissensed is that if the tree hugger were a real power do you think 100% would be getting certified?

Yes collusion and price fixing are illegal.......

So was the stuff Enron was doing.....but not found out.. till they got caught...

I dont consider the oil market a truly free market.....yes supply and demand are in effectbut artificial control are aslo in play.

If you looked you could probably find new energy construction projects being built in the us. In 2002 Duke energy planned to build 3 natural gas energy producing plants..but deferred them due to the decline in the western US of the declin in the wholesale market not tree huggers.

why would oil comapines go into debt to build new facilities when you are raking in record profits?
 
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