Garand load

[Slamfire]

Do you use a standard sizing die before running the small ring sizing die? Are these dies designed for semi auto rifles or do they have another use? Do most people run the small ring dies for garand ammo?

I don't remember ever using a SD before using the SB. However, if you have ballooned machine gun brass, that could be a good way to do it. Bring the brass down in stages. I basically double pumped fat brass in my SB die. Since I have gages, I size and check. If they brass is not being reduced, I double pump, adjust the die, whatever.

Small base dies are for whom ever wants their brass to be as close to factory spec as they can get it. I have had bolt guns which had small chambers. I could cam in standard base die brass but I had to use a cleaning rod to extract the brass.

Most service rifle shooters use standard dies. I am particular about my Garand/M1a ammunition. I have had two out of battery slamfires with Garands, both with Federal primers. First case was sized with a standard die, the second with a Forester Bonanza die. I don't want a third out of battery. People tend to get more picky about their ammunition on the first blow up, but back then, conventional wisdom was that slamfires were caused by only high primers or your worn out rifle. There was no concept for primer sensitivity. I had reamed the primer pockets, seated the primers to depth by hand, and inspected them, so on the second out of battery, I sort of suspected that conventional wisdom was nonsense* and all the "wise guys" who repeated it, were idiots.

* Bull-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- versus Nonsense

Nonsense is different: it’s worse. It consists of things that are actively false, and at its worst, of things that are just not true but can’t possibly be true. It is rarer than bull-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- but much more toxic, and it is the difference between someone exaggerating a bit because he is trying to sell you something and someone who is consciously lying to you, or who is so far out of touch with reality that he does not know he’s lying.

How to Speak Money, pg 86 Lanchester

https://books.google.com/books?id=C...sts of things that are actively false&f=false

 

[Slamfire]

Every time I see one of these threads, I tiptoe into the gun room and hide the Garand under a pile of other guns.

Maybe I'll just forget it over time.




But it's like peanuts....

What is the ethical thing to do? Is it to provide shooters with the maximum amount of information so that they understand the risk and can minimize the risk? Or is it, just to tell shooters nothing so they won't worry their little heads over it.

With the exception of roller bolts, all, and I mean all semi automatic rifles have posted slamfire accounts on the web. Shooters should know that nothing alive is to be in line with the muzzle when you chamber a round. Shooters should also know the peculiarities of the Garand mechanism enough to reduce inbattery and out of battery slamfires to an acceptable risk.

Slamfires in the Garand mechanism are rare, but they do happen. I have a Club member bud, Vietnam veteran, was in the Army prior to the M14. He saw hundreds of thousands of rounds go downrange. As a combat vet, his company probably shot hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange. He saw Soldiers injury themselves knocking a jammed round out of a BAR. They knocked the round out with a cleaning rod, but the primer hit something in the weapon. Boom!. But for all his experience he never saw a Garand, M14, or M16 slamfire. That is until a couple of years ago. He was shooting a Lackland AFB NM Garand. These are very rare, they were Air Force NM rifles made in 308. He was at the range, firing single shot, dropped the bolt on a LC match round, and BANG!, an in battery slamfire. That sure shook him, he talked about it later. You know having a gun go off when you don't plan to have it go off is real startling. As someone who has been shot at, he understood that bullets can kill. I think he may have actually killed people, his whole Vietnam experience is something that still upsets him, so we don't talk about it. But, regardless, he does not want to add his own self to the pile of people he witnessed dying from a bullet.

I am still shooting my Garands and M1a's, though not as much as when I was earning my Distinguished Rifleman Badge. I have confidence in my ammunition, that I have made it as goof proof as possible. Still, I always wear my shooting glasses. If it were not for shooting glasses, I would probably be blind in the shooting eye. Brass from an out of battery slamfire just pitted the heck out of the lenses. My face oozed blood, looked like someone attacked me with a fork, and it took weeks for all the brass particles to come out of the skin. I think I still have powder particles under the skin.

 

[rg1]

I've had no issues using a standard full length sizing die for 4 different Garands. I do adjust my sizing die to push the shoulders back a measured amount using my Hornady Headspace gauge and closely inspect primers that they are seated below flush. Also, I inspect firing pins and clean them regularly.

 

[condor bravo]

Slam:
Congratulations on your Distinguished Rifle Badge. Now we know how you acquired your forum monikor. You have experienced the Real Thing. And yes it is necessary to tell the Garand as it actually is and point out the shortcomings and how best to avoid disaster.

 

[mehavey]

What is the ethical thing to do? Is it to provide shooters with the maximum
amount of information so that they understand the risk and can minimize the
risk? Or is it, just to tell shooters nothing so they won't worry their little
heads over it....

As you might have guessed Slam, my tongue was firmly set against the peanuts inside my cheek.
One cannot walk away from that Grand Old Lady.
But as you note... treat her w/ respect.

It's a roll of the dice ...much like releasing the tow rope on my Grob 103.
Discipline loads the dice in my favor setting off a 50,000psi bomb next to my face.
And every landing is deadstick....

 

[BoogieMan]

Is comercial garand ammo any safer? I have heard issues with commercial ammo for other guns many times. Reloading for this rifle is not a big deal to me, I don't plan on using it for any competition shooting. It's just a range toy that will see limited use. Also are slam fire risks minimal as long as it's not loaded by slingshot ting single rounds.

 

[mehavey]

About the only commercial ammunition (that I know of) loaded to
the pressure/burn-rate specs is Federal "Garand-Specific ammunition"
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/95...ngfield-m1-garand-150-grain-full-metal-jacket

At the same time, I have long asked (this board amongst others)
what primers are used in this Federal product, but never gotten
an answer.

Anyone know?

 

[chiefr]

My advice for reloading for Garands/M1as is to

1. Full length resize in a small base die

2. Trim cases

3. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

4. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.

5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.

6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 3.3” inches for the 30-06, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.

+1 Spot on Slamfire

 

[condor bravo]

Likewise I am unaware of the primer used in the Federal American Eagle Garand ammunition but would think they would be milspec primers. I have used a quantity of the ammunition and my only objection is the crimped in primer. I would venture to say that these rounds are as safe to use as military. The ammunition not to use is commercial '06 rounds that might be loaded with slow burning powder resulting in high port pressure and damaging the operating rod. However have.never heard it said how much firing would be needed to actually do the damage. Rounds in question would likely be those with heavier bullets.

 

[TimSr]

Every time I see one of these threads, I tiptoe into the gun room and hide the Garand under a pile of other guns.

Maybe I'll just forget it over time.

I remember the good ol' days when I could just "load some 30-06" and shoot it.

Everyone wanst to be helpful, but sometimes answers to simple questions can become so overwhelming and complicated that the OP gets frustrated and buys factory ammo as he is lead to believe that you need a 4 year degree to handload for your Garand.

1. Full length resize in a small base die

2. Trim cases

3. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

4. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.

5. Use IMR4895/AA2495/H4895 powders.

6. Seat the bullets to magazine depth, no longer than 3.3” inches for the 30-06, no longer than 2.8 for the 308, shorter is fine.

To the OP, ^^^^this is all you really need for now.

 

[Unclenick]

I suspect the primers are Federal. They use the Federal 210M in Mk.316 mod.0 sniper ammo, and it gets shot in M14's as well as in the M24 sniper system it was intended for. They probably got a special waiver of the military sensitivity spec for it. Federal has long held that their primers were no more prone to slamfire than others, but rather it was just more people using their primers at matches that lead to that impression. Two things suggest Federal is wrong about that:

First, every gun that has ignition failures (tuned revolvers are the most common example) has fewer of them with Federal primers, indicating their greater sensitivity. Second, Federal came out with the GMM205MAR primer, a military sensitivity spec version of their 205M primer designated for the AR, a rifle less slamfire prone than the M1 and M14. Why do that if there's no sensitivity issue?

As to standard dies, you have to realize work-hardened brass is springy. The tighter you squeeze it, the more spring you get, up to a point, but one not normally reached by the resizing operation. As a result, range pick-ups and military and police once-fired brass can found that was fired in a wide chamber and that a standard sizing die simply will not return to width dimensions fully inside the SAAMI (and military; they appear to match in this regard) maximum case diameter specs. All sizing dies are narrower than that spec, but how much narrower depends on how much spring-back the designer allowed for. In general, the vast majority of the time, a standard die will make a case small enough for your particular chamber if the case was fired in your particular chamber originally. That cannot be guaranteed of that for one fired in some other chamber. If you let range pickups get mixed in with your own brass, be aware of this.

To those saying the military spec primers or small base dies are unnecessary because they've never had a problem: that's what is called anecdotal evidence. Most of us have never been in an airplane crash, but how many of us believe they can't happen to anybody, anywhere, anytime just because it hasn't happened to us? Anecdotal evidence can suggest a subject for study, but is of no use assessing risk, whether it's positive or negative. You need statistical evaluation that includes the successes and failures, even rare ones, to assess risk.

Do I ride airplanes anyway? Yes. I am willing to assume that risk for myself. I also shot Federal 210M primers in my Garands and M1A for years without incident. Do I still do that? No. Why not? There are three reasons I no longer use those Federal in my gas guns: One, I recognize the limited value of my personal anecdotal experience in proving anything. Two, with the availability of military sensitivity spec primers for handloaders, I have a simple way to make the small risk even smaller. If I had a simple way to further reduce risk in the airplanes I ride in, I would do that, too. Third, board member Hummer70 tells of having once investigated an out of battery fire that killed the soldier to the right of the ejection port of the gun it happened in. Even if I don't mind taking a small extra risk upon myself, I don't feel I have any right to decide the junior shooting on the firing point to my right should have to assume extra risk just because I want to; and certainly not when I can avoid it for less than an extra penny a shot. I just don't feel it would be responsible to do otherwise.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...there is no such thing as the slam fire issue..." Should have put in, "with the rifle".
"...small base die..." Aren't necessary. Millions of rounds have been reloaded and fired with no fuss long before there was such a thing.
An M1A is not an M1.

 

[kraigwy]

I'm certainly glad I started and did most of my Garand/M14 shooting and reloading before the internet came out. I'd have been scared to death.

The firing pin on this rifles will not travel far enough to set off a properly seated primer (any primer I know of) unless the bolt is locked up. The L shaped leg of the firing pin wont allow it.

The little book that comes with CMP Garands show this.

High primers can cause slam fires. Loose primer pockets and backed out primers may cause this. Or a too long firing pin.

You can argue tell the cows come home, it isn't gonna happen.

If you're still concerned, call the CMP Custom Shop and ask the armors. This topic comes up in the Advanced Maint. Courses (or at least it did mine), and the answer is aways the same, as I mentioned above.

This crap scares and confuses new Garand shooters.

 

[mehavey]

Well, it scares me as an old Garand shooter.
So ....

- I FL/SB resize
- Toss after a half-dozen firings
- Hand prime/thumb-feel each case
- Use [the harder/less sensitive] ] CCI primers at a minimum/Mil-Spec'd whenever available



- ...and read the weather reports before waggling my rudder to the towplane pilot

 

[Unclenick]

Kraigwy,

Garands are aging and few own the gauges necessary to check them comprehensively. Additionally, a lot of aftermarket parts are in them now as well.

In general, I submit that what might have been true of a military armorer maintained rifle fifty years ago, need not be true of it today. The example I gave of the issued LC ammo going off at the load command at the ORPA Spring DCM shoot at Perry in '89 (have since checked the date) was an example. The guns were all DCM owned and all had military parts, but a lot of them were so heavily used they were getting very loose. When the last time was that they had been inspected to see the safety bridges were not bent or broken, I don't know.

That OOB fires happened twice to Slamfire proves that they can happen. And those are not the only ones that have ever been reported. You can say they can't happen, but then you have to come up with an alternate explanation for where all the noise and smoke and little pieces of metal came from and why there wasn't a live round left over at the end of the event.

As near as I can tell, the explanation is that something causes the feed to be significantly interrupted after the bolt has picked up some speed, so the extractor snaps over the rim of the cartridge before the leg of the firing pin arrives at the safety bridge. I imagine the neck and shoulder of the last cartridge staying behind in the chamber is one candidate for producing this effect, though probably not the only one. In that instance you could blame the owner for reloading the same case once too often, and he would have to have the bad luck that it decided to produce that particular failure, so it would have to be a pretty rare event. And thank goodness it is. It's just not a zero probability.

"...small base die..." Aren't necessary. Millions of rounds have been reloaded and fired with no fuss long before there was such a thing.

And airplanes fly millions of miles a year without crashing. What's your point? It certainly isn't proof that a problem with fat cases never happens to anyone; just that it's not usual.

I made the mistake of buying a couple of Wilson Garand barrels once whose roughed chambers were so wide at the base that my headspacing reamer didn't touch them until half way to the neck. Talk about fat cases. My dad bought a .308 Garand chambered by a local guy who didn't know what a floating reamer holder was for and used a cheap Chinese tailstock chuck as the reamer holder. I had to grind out the inside of his RCBS Precision Mic base because the cases came ejected too fat to fit into it. Try sizing those to fit in a match rifle chamber with a standard sizing die.

"Utopia is a place where everyone always has everything they want, and nothing ever goes wrong. Utopia is not one of the options." David Bergland

Look, none of the things we are talking about are commonplace. I still get in airplanes and I still shoot Garands. Some degree of risk is incurred in everything we do, and as any list of fatal accidents reveals. Firearms accidents are alsway far from the top of such lists. Garands, specifically, may never even have made the list, for all I know. If that's right, I'd like to see it stay that way. But just because the Garand's safety mechanism has proven very reliable doesn't mean we let the muzzle cover somebody we aren't fighting when it is engaged.

In that same spirit, there's just no good purpose served in letting even a small risks be higher when the added cost of avoiding that is so trivial. And even if you don't believe the commercial version military hardness primers actually add a layer of safety, then consider that should a slamfire or an OOB fire in your rifle ever actually injure somebody, even if the actual cause was a high primer, just imagine what the injured's attorney will do when he learns from your past posts that there are special primers made that claim to make these gun's more safe and that you knew it and that you knowingly eschewed using them because you disagreed with the primer maker's "experts". You may curse the primer manufacturers for having created that hazard, but there it is, just the same.

 

[kraigwy]

Sir, I agree Garands are aging. I had one. I got it in 81 from the CMP and shot the crap out of it, When I was running sniper schools for the Guard using M1C/Ds many a day I shot it until sap boiled out of the stock. Then after retiring from the Guard, and getting my DR badge, CMP games became popular and I started shooting Garand Matches.

Before my eyes I saw my Garand age further, I saw the results on the target. Groups opening up is a sure sign. So I bought a barrel at the OK City game and the CMP put it on for me. The barrel is the only part that "gave up"

When metal ages and wears out, it doesn't shrink, it stretches or wears, making the tolerances looser. Firing pins wear, they don't grow. Its the firing pin that sets off the primer. If it wears it gets shorter not longer.

The firing pin is "L" shaped, the (non-firing) end is bent so that it holds the firing pin to the rear until the bolt is locked. Enless the firing pin had been modified or that L section breaks off (never heard of that happening) it cannot hit the (properly seated) primer until the bolt locks into battery.

High primers may go off by being smashed by the bolt face and the bolt slides home, but the firing pin wont set it off.

Ammo does cause problems, that I agree. Even factory ammo.

Back in the 70s or club was having a leg match. Back then DCM furnished the ammo and you had to shoot it. Most people shot Garands in EIC matches back then, there were a few Springfields and some service members shot M14,s but the Garand ruled.

In this match, not of our Garands worked. We checked and found out the somebody failed to put flash holes in the LC service ammo.

I was able to furnish guard Match Ammo from my Sniper school to allow the match to go on.

But that was the ammo, not the Rifle.

I have a Garand I put together with new, near perfect parts at the CMP AMC last month. Saturday I shot a Garand match followed by NMC. My new Garand wouldn't cycle my New Win Brass loaded with 47 grns. of 4064 pushing a 168 Horn. A-max bullet. That's a near perfect load for a M1, but not mine.

I guess you can say, it was the rifle, but it was my fault. At the AMC class the instructor/armor's told me my Head Space was too tight. I knew it, I did it purposely. I always set tight head space on my target rifles. It does make them more accurate. But that was my doing, not the design of the rifle, not that the rifle was wore out.

You'll not find a safer rifle then the USGI Garand/M14 series rifle. If it slam fires its not the fault of the rifle or firing pin.

Hatcher, in his "Hatcher's Book of the Garand" goes into great detail on the safety aspect of the Garand and how the Firing pin/bolt are designed so as the firing pin cannot pierce a primer until the bolt is locked into battery.

here are a picture I took at the AMC course showing the design of the firing pin/bolt of the M1. As I mentioned the little booklet the CMP sends out with the Garand shows a better picture, and explains it better.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/cmpamc/websize/IMG_1049.JPG

 

[Slamfire]

The firing pin on this rifles will not travel far enough to set off a properly seated primer (any primer I know of) unless the bolt is locked up. The L shaped leg of the firing pin wont allow it.

Not at all. The firing pin does not encounter the receiver bridge until cam down. Till then, the firing pin is totally free floating. Out of battery slamfires occur prior to cam down, that ought to be obvious. Of all the mechanisms on the market, and I mean all, Garand mechanisms have the most reported incidents of out of battery slamfires.

The receiver bridge was and always was, a firing pin retraction bridge. I am of the opinion that calling it a "safety" bridge is a creation from the early 60's. When I examine John Garands' patent, the functions of the firing pin tang and the firing pin retraction bridge are explicitly spelled out and neither as a firing pin block. Its primary function is to retract the firing pin at unlock. There is a slot allowing the firing pin to go forward when the bolt is in battery, but the function of the whole as a firing pin block is not claimed. The extractor is claimed as a means of holding the firing pin.

Patent 1 892 141 Semi Automatic Rifle. J. C. Garand Dec 27 1932

The firing pin is formed at its rear end with a laterally extending had 72 adapted to contact a projection 73 formed in the receiver when the bolt is in unlocked position so that the firing point is retracted into the bolt, but the head is cut away at 74 to pass such projection when the bolt is locked to permit the pin to be moved to its extreme forward or firing position.

"I claim":
5. The combination with a gun provided with a receiver, of a bolt receiprocable in the receiver, a firing pin reciprocal in the bolt, a laterally extending head for the pin and means in the receiver to engage the head on rocking of the bolt to unlocked position to retract the pin

6. The combination with a gun provided with a receiver, of a bolt reciprocable in the receiver, a firing pin in the bolt, an extractor carried by the bolt, and means on the extractor to prevent rotation of the pin with respect to the bolt.

7. The combination with a gun provided with a receiver, of a bolt reciprocable in the receiver, a firing pin in the bolt, an extractor carried by the bolt, and means on the extractor cooperating with the pin to limit movement thereof.

8 The combination with a gun provided with a receiver, of a bolt reciprocable in the receiver, a firing pin in the bolt, an extractor carried by the bolt, and means on the extractor to limit reciprocatory movement of the pin with respect to the bolt and prevent rotary movement thereof with respect thereto.

The Garand mechanism is an early semi automatic weapon design. It is my opinion that later mechanisms incorporated more thought into preventing incidental firing pin contact with the primer prior to lug engagement. As an example, AR mechanisms fully retract the firing pin until cam down. This is a very positive means of preventing firing pin initiated out of battery slamfires. If the firing pin is fully behind the bolt face till lug engagement, the primer is 100% protected from incidental contact with the firing pin. Credible out of battery slamfire incidents in AR’s are very rare. Armalite provides extensive large print warnings not to remove the firing pin spring in their AR10 actions. Technical Note 10: Prevention of Slamfires explicitly states that the firing pin spring reduces the inertial impact energy to a very safe level and almost always cures slamfires. http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech Notes\2015\Tech Note 10, Prevention of Slamfires 981226.pdf I don’t believe their statement that Government and commercial large rifle primers are not “Hardened” in the same way as the Government #41 primer. (Based on talks with CCI, commercial large primers are more sensitive than the #34 primer) Armalite is correct that free floating firing pins will lightly impact a cartridge primer and, very rarely, cause the primer to ignite. Their technical bulletin advises to always feed from the magazine, because the friction of stripping a round from the magazine slows the bolt, and to never, ever, remove the firing pin spring. In Technical Note 59: AR-10(T) Addendum to USMC M16A2 Technical Manual there is a picture of the Armalite spring on a firing pin and the large print notice: ”WARNING: THE FIRING PIN SPRING IS AN IMPORTANT SAFETY DEVICE AND MUST NOT LOOSE, REMOVED, OR LOST” From Armalite Operator’s Manual http://usarmorment.com/pdf/AR10M15OperatorsManual.pdf

The AR-10 firing pin spring reduces the firing pin mark on the primer of a chambered cartridge that is chararacteristic of M-16 type rifles, and the “slamfire” possible with overly sensitive primers”. “THE FIRING PIN SPRING IS AN IMPORTANT SAFETY DEVICE AND MUST NOT BE LOOSE, REVERSED, REVOVED, OR LOST.”

Simonov’s SKS and the Fabrique Nationale FAL were extremely hard to find in the US prior to the Reagan administration, but since then they were imported in mass quantities. There is a domestic manufacturer of the FAL so supplies won't be as tight as they were prior to the 1980's. Both mechanisms are examples of designs that use a titling breech face to reduce the possibility of an out of battery slamfire. In both of these designs the bolt face is out of perpendicular from the case head until the bolt is in battery. This keeps the firing pin out of parallel with primer until the bolt faces rises as the bolt goes into battery. Both of these rifles have free floating firing pins, the FAL has a firing pin spring to reduce the chance of a slamfire and so do some models of Russian SKS’s. I never saw a Chinese SKS that had a firing pin spring and there are plenty of in-battery slamfires reports, most particularly the SKS, due to firing pin inertia with either of these models. Murray’s sells a SKS firing pin spring to reduce firing pin impact on bolt closure.

http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm.

There are a few firearm designs which don’t manually retract the firing pin and the SKS and FAL are among them. For these designs it is safety critical to keep the firing pin channel clean to prevent the firing pin from being wedged in a forward position. Here, Murray performs an insanely risky test with an SKS. He has wedged the firing pin forward and the gun fires until the rifle is empty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj3QtnUWCwQ The primary reason the rifle does not have an out of battery slamfire is due to the titling breech face design of the mechanism, but given a long enough firing pin, I don’t see any reason why an out of battery slamfire could not happen.

Here is a video of an SKS which the owner claims is well maintained and it slamfires in battery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPn97vz0Vyw

D.J Saive, the designer of the FAL, in the earliest version, the FN49, inside the patent there is an explicit claim for a firing pin blocking feature.

Tilt Locking Breechblock for Automatic Firearms D. J. Saive July 18, 1950, 2,515,315

The spring 32 also forms a safety device (Figure 14) for preventing firing when the breech block is unlocked. As shown in 'Figure' 14, the firing
pin 31 has a groove 31a in it and the spring 32 has a lug 32a on it which acts as a safety and, by engaging in the groove 31a, holds the firing pin against forward movement when the breech block is unlocked . When the breech block is not locked (Figure 8) the rear end of the slide projects beyond the rear end of the firing pin thus preventing the striker from striking said firing pin.

You can see a picture of the firing pin safety stop here:

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Semi-automatic Rifles/FN 59/bolt disassembly.htm

Unfortunately, as anyone who has searched, the firing pin safety stop has not been positive in function as there are lots of accounts of out of battery slamfires in the FN 49. One cause is a weak firing pin that breaks and sticks out through the bolt face, but there are a number of accounts where the firing pin was found to be intact and not stuck within the barrel channel.

Something must have changed with the FAL, while in battery slamfire accounts are easily found, out of battery slamfire accounts are rare.
As can be seen with this FAL bolt, when it is unlocked, the firing pin center of axis is off set from the primer center. Any incidental firing pin contact is less likely to ignite the primer. Data shows that the further the firing impact is from the center of the primer, the greater the misfire rate. Primers need to be hit in the middle for positive ignition.

Another feature is that the breech face is out of perpendicular with the cartridge base. Only at lockup does the bolt face and firing pin square up. There could be out of tolerance conditions that could create incidental firing pin contact with the center of the primer, but in this mechanism, such events are rare.


FAL Bolt out of battery



FAL Bolt in battery


I am impressed with the HK roller bolt actions. The primary concern of the German designers was to create a rifle that could be quickly and inexpensively mass produced, a goal they achieved, and they also produced an easy to maintain and safe rifle. I have never heard of any in battery or out of battery slamfire events in the roller bolts and I am of the opinion that a firing pin induced out of battery slamfire is totally impossible in this design without part breakage. The firing pin absolutely cannot move forward of the breech face until the rollers are in battery:



These are pictures of the bolt mechanism of my PTR 91, you can see the firing pin spring, “connecting rod” and bolt.





The firing pin mainspring is very strong, much stronger than I have found on any of the actions I own. To call this firing pin “free floating” is almost an oxymoron as spring tension must keep the firing pin in place regardless of firing pin inertia.

Of the military actions on the market, the Garand mechanism has the most reports of slamfires. One reason has to be the hundreds of thousands of Garands that have been imported and are now in civilian hands. Another reason is that the Garand action has a long free floating firing pin. This mechanism does not positively hold the firing pin throughout the feed cycle and the firing pin is always in line with the centerline of the cartridge case. Due to these characteristics the Garand mechanism will not only slamfire in battery, but out of battery. I am of the opinion that the US Army controlled slamfire rate in the Garand (and M14) by specifying a relatively insensitive primer. I am of the opinion this was how most militaries controlled slamfires in their issue rifles: primer insensitivity. On page 58 of the April 2011 Guns Magazine Mike Venturino reports having a in battery slamfire in a K43 and SVT40 rifle with standard primers. These slamfires ended when he used #34 primers.

High primers can cause slam fires. Loose primer pockets and backed out primers may cause this.

CCI says high primers are the most common cause of misfires. There is a lot of pistol ammo cranked out on progressives with high primers, and yet, I don't read of slamfires problems in auto pistols. If high primers are the primary slamfire mechanism, which your post implies, how come semi auto rifles are the one having slamfires, and not semi auto pistols?

It is my opinion that high primers are the least likely cause of slamfires.

If you're still concerned, call the CMP Custom Shop and ask the armors. This topic comes up in the Advanced Maint. Courses (or at least it did mine), and the answer is aways the same, as I mentioned above.

Fan boys may believe whatever they want to believe. After my experiences, I consider these types delusional. I rely on observations in the real world, they base their religion on authority and ignore all evidence contrary. Did these experts ever discuss why every semi automatic mechanism in every semi automatic rifle has had a posted slamfire? I have pages of slamfire incidents that I have copied from web posts, many with factory ammunition. The world has gotten larger since the inbred world of the DCM and the NRA and their old worn out religion that slamfires are only caused by high primers and worn out receiver bridges. Prior to the mid 1990's, hardly anyone had anything other than a Garand or M1a, then the Colt AR15 monopoly was broken, good President Reagan allowed the import of huge quantities of military surplus rifles. Shooters had access to SKS's, FAL's, Russian rifles, Swedish, French, and every one of these has a slamfire incident, many with factory ammunition. Try to find an out of battery slamfire incident with one of these.

Did these CMP experts ever discuss this? These rifles were gaged for compliance, were being shot with Government ammunition in Government test, and one, slamfired out of battery. How could that have happened? I have a paper copy of this report. The Army was testing production models of H&R’s and SA’s for dimensional part compliance, (part interchangeability), such things as the thickness of the chrome coatings were measures, rifles were reassembled after gaging and underwent endurance testing.


USATECOM Project No 8F-3002-04, Comparison Test of rifles, 7.62 MM, M14 Manufactured by Springfield Armory and Harrington and Richardson Arms Company. Author G. E. Hendricks, July 1963.


At round 5271 a Springfield Armory M14 went off out of battery, with military ammunition. The report states:

“One rifle fired when the bolt was in the unlocked position causing breakage for the firing pin, extractor, bolt roller, ejector, and stock. The magazine split, causing the magazine floor-plate spring and 12 rounds of ammunition to be ejected against the bench rest from which the rifle was being fired. The case ruptured and several pieces of brass were found in the area. A broken part of piece of brass perforated a cardboard box with was position between the gunner and the proof director. The cardboard box was used as a brass catcher. Not all the broken pieces were found. Although no one was physically injured this is a seriously unsafe condition.”

So, six rifles were tested, five completed the test firing 6000 rounds each, one slamfired out of battery at round 5271, for a total round count of 35, 271. Therefore the probability of an out of battery slamfire with mil spec primers is 1:35,000.

 

[schmellba99]

Jeesus, I'm pretty much paranoid to shoot my Garand now. I didn't use small base dies when I reloaded, I didn't use one of the 3 listed powders, I don't have custom cut test chambers to check each and every single round to ensure that they are 100% perfect, and I didn't hand seat my primers. Come to think of it, I didn't use CCI primers either.

I'm apparently lucky that the rounds I have shot thus far have not killed me or blown up my gun.

I get making a comment about some safety aspects, but anybody reading slamfire's posts will likely burn every reloading book they have, scrap every tool they have and probably throw their gun in a lake before attempting something that apparently requires some NASA technology to accomplish.

 

[Slamfire]

Since this thread has entered the realm of sarcasm, maybe it is a good time to drag out of the closet a list of horrors. This is my accumulation of good M1a slamfire reports, I have a longer list of Garand slamfire posts, but I am feeling lazy about adding in the bold and quotations. The M1a bolt differs from the Garand bolt by having a roller on the end. The bolt is shorter because the cartridge is shorter. Otherwise, as to firing pin, bolt, receiver bridge, the M1a/M14 is a copy of the Garand.

There are those who make a big fuss over a Garand not being a M14, which is true, though Garands have been converted to box magazine feed. The M14 was a product improved Garand, a better gas system, a shorter and stiffer operating rod, shorter barrel, and a box magazine. Those are the major differences. A small number of parts interchange between the Garand and the M14. When it comes to the basics of firing pin retention, (none) the M14 and Garand are the same. M14's/M1a's have fewer slamfire reports, mostly due to the fact the firing pin is lighter. That makes a difference in kinetic energy.

M1a Slamfire with Prvi Partizan

http://m14forum.com/ammunition/128327-slamfire-today.html
________________________________________

I was shooting Prvi Partizan 168gr Match HPBT. It looked like new, bought from cabelas last week. Anybody else get em with PPU ammo?

In the middle of a mag during slow fire. After my 10th shot or so I had a double

And I am telling you guys that I know what a f#$kin bump fire is. that isnt what happened. Also.... so frickin sorry about calling it a "slam fire" instead of a "double" sue me.

Oh yeah hot shot? Maybe it'd be different if bumpfire wasn't suggested 3 times!

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13132&view=&hl=slamfire&fromsearch=1 April 2009 - 09:10 AM

Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:06 AM

We had at least 2 MIA's over the years at New Holland that had rounds go off when the bolt was closed.
The reason I am able to think of at least 2 is the severe damage to the rifles. In the 2 listed instances the rifles were damaged to the point the receivers were cracked and or broken.
We have an AR-15 do the same thing a time or 2 a year. We have not had rifle damage from the AR-15 slam fires.
My finding at the end of the M1A era and start of the AR-15 era was to completely ensure an AR-15 will not slam fire is to install a light weight firing pin.
Sincerely,
Paul

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=526486

Today, 07:16 AM #4

Hangingrock
Member


Join Date: March 10, 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 152 One time with Federal Match ammunition neither Springfield nor Federal accepted responsibility. The rifle a M1A-Supermatch was examined by Springfield and found by them to be with in specification. I sent Federal the unused portion of the ammunition. They responded per their examination that there were no issues with the ammunition.

Over four plus decades of usage I’ve seen slight firing pin indentations on primers with M1 & M1A rifles. That’s why muzzle direction and safety are so very important.

A competitor on the firing line next to me was single loading his AR15 muzzle down on his shooting stool during off hand. He let the bolt go home and the rifle discharged. It didn’t do the contents of his shooting stool any good at all.

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/reload/reload.pl?noframes;read=31870

saw this same thing happen at all army matches back in 91. the guy next to me had his match m-14 blow up during the rattle battle match at 600 yds.it blew the bolt out of the reciever and pieces of it landed 20-30 yds behind the fireing line. he had one piece go through the top of his cap and graze his scalp and he also bled like a stuck hog.they stopped the match collected all of the ammo, reissued a new lot and away we went with him shooting a different rifle. they decided it was a high primer and this was in LC match. it can happen. it is the only time i ever saw it happen and i have been shooting both 14s and garands for both the USMC and ARMYNG and as a civilian since 1975

Slamfire with Federal Primers in a M1a

17 Aug 2005

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4824&st=15

John,

Congrats on your great performance at Perry.

I had to vote "Other". I have just scanned all the posts on this thread so far, but did not see any comment about the primers I use, which are the CCI Mil-Spec primers. I use the CCI 41 in the 223 that I shoot in my AR-15 Space gun (the Space Beast) and the CCI 34 in my 6.5 CHiP wildcat that I shoot in my AR-10 (the Space Monster).

These primers were designed to require 50% more energy to set them off in the standard drop test. To give them this "toughness", they have a slightly thicker cup and a slightly different anvil geometry than regular CCI primers. I was also told by Alan Jones of CCI that the amount and type of priming compound used in them is the same as what is in their magnum primers of the same size, making the CCI 34 and 41 equivalent to the CCI 450 and 250 respectively

I use these primers for one reason: SLAMFIRE PREVENTION!

I have had one slamfire in my shootng career. It happened back in 1990 when I was shooting an M14/M1A and that experience was the basis for the first article I ever wrote for Precision Shooting. Back then, the CCI Mil-Spec primers were not yet available; and after some testing, I switched from using the Federal 210Ms to the Winchester WLR. I have never had another slamfire after that first one, but it was enough. I hung up the M1A in 1993 after legging out and went back to the bolt gun, but when I began playing with the AR-15 Space gun that I call the Space Beast, I immediately started to use the CCI 41s in the ammo for it.

There was a time when these primers were hard to find, I think because of military orders; but now they seem to be more available. I got my most recent batch from Graf & Sons of Mexico, Missouri.

I do use one other primer in my 6.5 CHiP (which is the short 6.5-08 I chambered my AR-10 for), the CCI BR-2, but only for my 600 yard load with the 142 grain SMK. I picked this primer for this load only because loads with it gave me slightly better accuracy than the same loads with the CCI 34 in early testing, and I didn't want to use up a lot of barrel life trying to find a load that would give me slightly smaller groups when I was already getting slightly under 0.5 MoA at 200 yards. At 600 yards, I only shoot these single-loaded. They are never fed from the magazine because I don't like to have the bullets possibly be knocked out of alignment by being bashed into the feed ramps on their way into the chamber.

Just some things to think about.

All the best, Randolph

M1a Slamfire with Federals
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=73345

04-20-2004, 04:22 AM
mikej
Beartooth Regular Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 441

Yes there are, and CCI makes them for LR and SR applications. I have had slamfires in my M1, M1A and AR-15, but only when using Federal Match primers. They seem to have softer primer cups than WW and CCI. Can't speak as to Remington, never having used them. If you ever have a slamfire it will get your attention, and every one elses as well. It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway,always keep the muzzle in a safe direction.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=574351

I would strongly recommend using a small base die and limit reloads 3-4 times. Use LC brass if you can find them. Keep cases trimmed to 2.00 to 2.05. Never use Fed primers. CCI #34 would be best. IMR 4895 is the correct burn rate for operating system. I learned this the hard way. After having a couple of slamfires with my Socom 16. I sent it back to Springfield to replace the bolt and rework the chamber. I believe my slamfires was due to excessive reloading and using a FL die...

M1a slamfires on a reload

http://forum.pafoa.org/ammunition-reloading-25/97895-m1a-slam-fire-reloads.html

April 23rd, 2010
Kramer
Grand Member Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Effort, Pennsylvania
(Monroe County)
Posts: 1,178
Rep Power: 366


Re: M1A slam fire on reloads
________________________________________
I saw one blow up on the highpower line back in the early 1990's and it was not a pretty sight.

Anyway it's usually caused by the floating firing pin having too much inertia while the bolt is closing.

To avoid make sure that you feed the rifle from the magazine, the follower will slow down the bolt enough to eliminate this issue.

Also use harder primers like CCI 34 or magnum primers and do not load a round directly into the chamber especially without a mag in place

M1a Slamfire with reload

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=13587.0


The truth about slam fires
Post by: 4570Lever on June 18, 2006, 11:47:13 PM
________________________________________

I have a had a slam fire in my MIA, which apparently is prone to it.

The effect is like a 2 shot burst full auto, so it was actually kind of cool. Also unexpected, and a bit scary...if the wrong person was nearby i could be accused of having an unregistered full-auto piece, though clear examination would probably show it just needed a gunsmith for repair.

It was nothing I could duplicate effectively, and my guess was and still is that was the cheap, bulk reloaded gun-show ammo I had bought earlier.

I did not think to collect the shells and examine them, and even then could not be sure which I had because they eject all over the place and land in a pile...i was through a box and a half at the time.

notes that came with the gun state that the gun is very sensitively set up regarding headspacing, not sure if that would affect the subject topic.

I dont recall protruding primers, that would have gotten my attention. I imagined the sequence to be, initial round is fired...the bolt comes back and the spent case is ejected while the following round comes up from the mag...at some point the force of the returning bold slams the 2nd round home and force of the bolt slamming home sets off the follow on round...whether the firing pin was stuck forward or the primer was sensitive I will never know.

The incident has not repeated, and this was the rifle used on the doe I took last fall mentioned in full detail here. That was with standard winchester white box ammo.

M1a out of battery slamfire with tight cases

http://www.snipercountry.com/HotTips/Slamfire.htm

M14/M305: I looked at my personal "slam fire" and here is what happend. I have a NM TRW bolt in a Norinco M305, I shot realoads that were made for and previously shot out of my G-3, the local hunting clubs range I shoot at does not allow magazines, or slings,(go figure) to be used.
My conclusion: headspace is really on the tight side after lapping the bolt in, the realoads even though full sized still had the H&K flutes on them and may not have seated all the way in the chamber, I used thin CCI Bench rest primers in tight PMC brass pockets that were seated real flat, and I had to load the round into the chamber and then close the bolt onto it which causes a higher bolt speed forward that if it would feed a round out of the mag. BAM, Slammfire ! Clearly not the Guns fault, but operator failure. The only damage that I found so far is a small deformation in the OP rod cam were the bolts giudewheel runs. I´ll take her to the range again and fire some factory FMJ out of a Magazine to see if the little deburring I did solved the problem.
The straight wall, no neck .308 case is in a special glass case I reserved for little reminders. This case also includes a 1" truck wheel nut and bolt that I stripped. It was stamped L for left hand thread, but in the heat of battle, what do I know.
"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, February 11, 1999 at 08:50:34 (ZULU)

Does someone make an aftermarket firing pin (with spring) for M1 Garands


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=141810&highlight=garand

I've had one slam fire, that was with an M1A. I dropped a round fully into the chamber, then let the bolt fly home. The rifle was pointed at the ground, but I nearly shot the tire on my car. I still have a bunch of 06 ammo loaded with CCI benchrest primers, back when they were still nickle plated, never had a problem with them, once I learned my lesson and knew better than to fully chamber a round. Lot of fellows don't know about slam fires, even a WWII vet friend didn't know what it was, but he understood the mechanics of it when I explained it. So, how was your OAL, Ole? Sticking the bullet into the lands increases the likelyhood of a slam fire, sets the head back every so slightly tighter against the bolt face. But what you've pictured looks pretty normal to me.

M14 Slamfire with NATO ball/Mexican Match

23 June 2012

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7811043/m/7861067471

A very good friend was present and gave the following account based on his observations:

I was on the point just to the right at 600 yards during the State Service Rifle matches. A junior was shooting a DCM arsenal built State NM M14 using Spanish Berdan primed NATO ball Mexican match with 168 grain Sierras.
Apparently there was a sensitive primer on a singly hand fed round in the
chamber that got impacted by the firing pin before bolt lockup when when
the kid released the bolt with the bolt release. There was an empty
magazine in the rifle that got damaged along with the bolt and op rod. I
don't think the action or barrel was damaged beyond use but the stock was
splintered and the shooter got a bruised left arm and minor abrasions and
splinters through his 10X tan cloth shooting jacket. I remember hearing
this unusual explosion on my left and getting hit by stock hardware and
bolt roller parts that ended up on my mat, I looked over and the kid was
lying there with a stunned look on his face with his rifle stock bent down
at the action and smoke rising out of the left sleeve of his coat.
Luckily he was wearing glasses and the closed back end of the action
controlled most of the blowback so he suffered only minor injuries and
major questioning from his laundry lady! It is my opinion that it was a
classic M1/M14 premature firing pin impact before bolt closure into full
battery.

Slamfire in M1a with Federal Primers

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461391

Every now and then I used to get a slamfire (mostly Federal 210 match primers) in my loaded M1A. After switching to CCI #34 primers I have had no such problems.

Yesterday, 10:18 PM #6

brmfan
Senior Member

Join Date: October 21, 2008
Posts: 289 Every now and then I used to get a slamfire (mostly Federal 210 match primers) in my loaded M1A. After switching to CCI #34 primers I have had no such problems.





M1a out of battery slamfire with a reload

Harder Primer?
________________________________________

Unclenick,
Would you school me a bit there? Specifically what primer would you consider to be harder.
BTW I shot Hi-power from 1980-1994. I always shot a gun that was built and issued me. Likewise, I shot bullets that came in a lot of little brown boxes with black lettering or white boxes with red and blue writing and they all came in big green cans in wooden crates. During all that time I heard of a slam fire but only actually saw one. That happened on the 600 yd line at Ft Campbell during the Kentucky State Championships. I was scoring a shooter and he had just rolled back in to shooting position after having acknowledged seeing the same score as I on the previous shot. He released the bolt and Blam!!! there was a cloud of grass and dust from under the rifle and I was wondering what the hey? and what is that jacked up black steel thing (magazine opened up like a morning glory). Split the stock and put brass specks in the shooters cheek. I told him- Dude you gonna need another gun?
That may have been a reload but I don't know. Just know I don't want to have one blow.
Thanks for all the input folks
__________________

M1a slamfired out of battery, over long case and CCI #34 primer:

http://www.handloadersbench.com/view_topic.php?id=15948&forum_id=4&highlight=doubledown

Sat Feb 26th, 2011 10:56 AM Add as Friend
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doubledown
HB Full Member

Joined: Sun May 11th, 2008
Location: Connecticut USA

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I load alot for the M1A, heres some of the things I have learned along the way. I only use a small base full length dies, I reload on a 1050 Dillon and I also use a full length body die in the tool head just to make sure the brass is properly sized. I also drop every loaded round in a case gauge to make sure it will chamber. (PITA but my face is worth it)

I've had a slam fire ONCE, and on an open bolt rifle like the M1A it was not fun. It was cause by improperly sized brass (and not useing my head) I also use CCI 34 military primers only. The M1a is very hard on brass, I only load my brass twice and then scrap it.

This is what works for me, you can use any dies you want as long as the sized brass fits in a .308 case gauge you are good to go.

I PM’d the gentleman and asked for an expanded explanation:

It was 100% my fault and easily prevented...but I was'nt thinking. I was using CCI #34 primers and Nato brass. My problem was my sizing die backed out on a handful of my reloads, I thought I caught and checked them all but as I found out, One got by. The head of the lone unsized case would not seat fully in the chamber. I SAW THE CASE STICKING OUT OF THE CHAMBER about a 1/2 inch and out of habit let the bolt go home! It seemed like 3 minutes passed as the bolt was headed towards the cartridge and I was calling myself a stupid mother F***er and screwed my eyes shut and waited for detonation. It didn’t disappoint, the receiver grenaded, blew the magazine out and many parts including the rear sight up into the ceiling of the covered range. (I was the only one there) I only had a few scrapes, the rifle needed alot of work to be made operational again. Again, it was my my fault, muscle memory bypassed rational thought, and my lack of quality control. Lesson learned, and most importantly nobody got hurt.

http://m14forum.com/m14/120119-out-battery-slam-fire-today.html

Out of Battery Slam Fire Today
________________________________________

After 15 years of shooting and reloading for this rifle, I blew it up this morning. Out of battery slam fire. Receiver came apart to the rear of the rear sight. Bolt is destroyed and op rod is tweaked. Near as I can figure, my once fired LC brass should have been run through a small base sizer, I think the loaded round chambered about 90% of the way, bolt and firing pin wanted to keep going and kaboom. Case head separated and turned into a frag grenade, remainder of case remains stuck in the chamber. Detonation was on par with shooting .50 BMG and taking the hardest punch ever in the face simultaneously.

So what are my options here, complete new rifle? Or some attempt at salvaging the remaining parts that appear to be undamaged on the surface, not a smith so that's why I say on the surface, I have no idea what an event like this does to a barrel and gas system.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/m1a-m14-talk/210160-slam-fire-tell-me-your-story.html

I have had this awful experience with my M1A Supermatch at a Regional High Power Match a number of years ago.....blew up the gun badly and got a face full of tiny shrapnel.

Thank God for good shooting glasses (Zeiss) that were badly damaged saving my vision.

The REAL culprit in this out of battery firing was that the sizing die was not setting the shoulder back properly and the bolt closed JUST enough to allow the firing pin to go forward and KABOOM! One thoroughly destroyed gun and severely shaken shooter...I have pictures if anyone wants...

Shakes you to the core doesn't it?

Randy

PS. It is WELL worth your time and money to invest in a case gauge ( Wilson, Dillon, Forrester) to check your ammo instead of trying to run it through your gun. Would have saved me a VERY costly experience.....

Norinco Poly .308 M305 (M-14) Rifles

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561202

Any body else out there with a Poly Norinco M-305? I just witnessed first hand a premature detonation as the rifle was going into battery, throwing the forward part of the round into the breech, and blowing a substantial amount of the bolt head back down the right hand side of the butt, fortunately just to the right of my face. My son was not so lucky, sustaining 14 minor superficial wounds about his face and eyes. My assessment is that the firing pin had somehow become jammed in the forward position, and when it picked the round and started to move it forward into the bore, it fired, well before the round was seated in the bore and it was locked into battery. Before you shoot one of these rifles, I RECOMMEND CAREFULLY INSPECTING THE BOLT AND FIRING PIN SPRING FOR SIGNS OF WEAR, FATIGUE OR DAMAGE PRIOR TO FIRING AGAIN. This rifle was being fired single shot (he forgot the magazine at home) and was on the 21st shot, so it obviously was not a hot gun, and it was factory American Eagle .308 WIN, not a hand load, AND REMEMBER TO USE EYE AND EAR PROTECTION WHEN USING ANY FIREARM TO REDUCE THE CHANCE OF PERSONAL INJURY. After I posted this on Faceplant, another fellow I know posted that a friend of his son experienced the same thing. Unable to verify the age of the rifle/handload/ammo manufacturer yet, but will try. Let me know if anyone else has experienced something similar, or are these isolated incidents?

Thanks, and keep the faith!

Customized M305/M-14 Slamfire...What a mess!

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...M-14-Slamfire-What-a-mess!?highlight=slamfire

Short Story - Had an uncontained slam fire in my customized M305/M-14 destroyed the bolt and bent the operating rod. How and where can I get replacement parts?

Longer Story- Customized my M14 with a heavy barrel and custom gas system. Have been working up loads using IVI brass, CCI BR2 primers, Hornady 155 AMAX Moly with Varget and H135 powder. Headed out to my range for a load check. Clean rifle. -8, calm day... perfect! I placed a fouler in the chamber, planning to close the bolt and load a 5 round mag to fire for group. I didn't completely seat the round in the chamber expecting the bolt to seat, as I released the bolt...Boom! Fortunately I was standing above the rifle with the rifle on my bench. The case errupted, the bullet did clear the barrel however most of the case is stuck in the chamber. The bolt detached from the Operating Rod, the extractor was blown off. I recovered the case head, clearly a firing pin indentation. Back in my gun room I stripped the rifle down. Bolt gouged up top and bottom, roller detached and split, roller retainer fractured. Had a hard time removing the Op Rod it was bent outwards and was binding in the groves.

The actual load is irrelavent however I do load the primers deep enough that they are slightly below the case head. I do relieve the trigger springs by dry firing prior to storage. The case does have a firing pin indentation in the primer indicating the firing pin was forward in the bolt. Temperture -8ish..pin frozen? pin bound in place by dry firing? Not sure, could be either.

Now the next issue...I need a new/ replacement Bolt and Operating Rod. Are these parts readily available and from where? Will headspace be an issue with a different bolt? I have a stock Polytech M305 from which I could "borrow" the parts to finish my load development but I don't want 2 unservicable rifles. I was/am planning to post the build and developement when finished load developement.


Slam Fire's "R" US. You are lucky you have both eyes my friend. Safety Glasses will usually prevent most eye injuries.

Just before too many rant over the Norinco M-14's, there are alot of semi-autos that both commercial and military that can slam fire not just the M-14, when allowing that powerful recoil spring to accelerate the bolt from zero to 60 in 5.2M/secs. Just last week-end a friend at work witnessed a Remington 742 .30-06 slamfire. The kid carrying it forgot the magazine for it way back at camp and it was not much time left for the evening hunt. He said oh well, just one in the chamber will do. Turned away from my friend, let her fly on a chambered round and KABOOOM!. Hit a granite rock 3 feet from muzzle, peppered his jacket and face with sharpnel leaving it bleeding quite bad. My friend was just covered in granite dust. The kid refused to go to the emergency, how do you explain a firearms accident,... so he sucked it up.

They returned immediately home, and the kids father who owned the 742, said well that will never happen to anyone again and proceeded to the garage where he cut her down in 2" strips. My friend keep telling him the 742 needs to be loaded from the mag but he chopped her to scrap!

 

[condor bravo]

I hope I'm not responsible for creating all this fuss by innocently mentioning slamfires back in post #4. But not likely, it would have developed anyway. The thread has been informative and should be appreciated. Keep the ball rolling without the sarcasm. What I initially thought might have been four second shot slamfires, U'nick pointed out where they were probably just doubles and explained how that can happen with a loose sling.