Gangsta Style?

A cant will make a gun shoot off to one side.

It has to do with gravity.

Bullets do not go in a strait line, but as soon as launched begin to fall to earth due to gravity.

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.

In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.

Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

If you know of any pistol calibers that shoot in straight lines and ignore gravity, I want to know about them.

PS this can be easily demonstrated at the range.
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That's a joke, right? Your theory is sound, just completely backwards.

If you place a laser-boresight in the chamber of your weapon...would it travel at an upward angle? No.

If you were to place a laser on your rear sight and align it with your front sight, would you notice that it traveled at a slight downward angle? Yes.

THAT is what accounts for the fact that a projectile will intersect line-of-sight twice; NOT because the barrel is angled upwards. The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.
There is also nothing about firearm design that will "compensate" for gravity.
 
The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.
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Sure about this? If you are zeroed at, say 300 yds, and shoot at say, 100yds, the bullet will impact 2-3" high (depending on caliber). This IS above the front sight. I think it is called mid-range trajectory.

True the barrel isn't at an "upward angle". But when you line up your downward-slanting sights, the barrel does rise up also.
 
You're right - we're saying the same thing.

It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line. If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.
If you zero at 300m and shoot a target at 100m, you are correct - the round will strike high. That is because your sights have been adjusted DOWN to intersect the bullet trajectory at 300m and at 100m the round is still "above" line of sight.

Think about it this way: in order to shoot further out you must adjust your sights. In essence, you are angling the sights so that they are at a sharper downward angle, which - once you sight in - forces the angle of departure (or the angle at which you are holding the barrel) to increase upwards. However, because a bullet has no inherent flight capability, it is physically impossible for it to rise above the boreline.

The upward cant of a barrel is not a design feature, it is a product of adjustable sights.
 
jamaica said:
My experience after many years of hunting is that no matter what the game or the gun, you have to make a good hit to kill anything, including a fly. You don't often do that just pointing and hoping. You carefully align the sights on a vital area, and squeeze off.
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Blackwater is talking about CQB (or approaching CQB) with a pistol, not hunting.
 
The only way that you could have the bullet raise over the front site would be to shoot over a spinning super conducting magnet, but thats just silly.
 
Somewhere along the line

many of you have failed to grasp the situation.

Like the man said "stupid" that is a quote, I don't use that word.
Ignorant is better.

HQ
 
Oh c'mon, surely you guys have heard about trajectories and the relationship of bullet path to line of sight?

If not perhaps you could do some research. Perhaps you can come to understand that the bullet does indeed rise above the line of sight and come back down to hit the target at the range where the gun is sighted in. The only exception to this is if you are shooting closer than where the trajectory of the bullet first crosses the line of sight, which in my rifle illustration would be 60 feet.

Pistol bullets have a poor balistic coefficient and travel at much lower velocities than rifle bullets, which means that they do not have a very flat trajectory. In other words you would have to raise your rear sight quite a bunch to get the pistol to zero at 100 yards. You launch the bullet at an uphill angle and it arcs up and back down to hit the target. At midrange the bullet would be quite a bit above the line of sight. Much more than a rifle bullet would be (assuming sighted in at 100 yards)

Once you figure this out you will then be able to comprehend why a cant will make the gun shoot off to one side and low.

The Hornady Reloading Handbook has excellent balistic tables and goes into this in detail. It is pure physics; not my law, but natural law. You might ignore mens laws, but if you ignore the law of nature the consequences are immediate and often catastrophic.
 
quoting pickpocket

It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line.
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The projectile does not rise above the bore line. What I said is, the bullet rises above the line of sight.

If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.
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I am going to assume you mean with the sights properly aligned on the target?
If so your statement is incorrect.
The line of sight is a straight line. It is the line you see from your eye to the target; looking over your sights, post centered in the notch and level on top and aligned on the bullseye.
Yes, the bullet does rise above the line of sight.

Have you ever thrown a baseball? Remember how it arches up then falls back down? That is exactly what a bullet does. You are out in right field and grab a grounder. You are going to throw it to the first baseman. You can see him. That is a straight line from your eye to the target. That is your line of sight. Now throw the ball............................... it arches way up above the line of sight and drops back down into his mitt. Right? You actually launch that baseball at quite an uphill angle to get it there. Right?

Bullets and sights work the same way. It is physics. It is just the way it is. No room for arguement. You can't change it. You may come to understand it.
 
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We have a failure to communicate

The line of sight and the ability to put the bullet on target is one thing.

The bullet leaving the gun and falling by the force of gravity is quite another.

This is where speed and lightweight bullets rule vs slow and heavy. To get on target you have to have a lot of trickery going on with the heavy ones or else they never will get there.

So we are tricking Mother Nature:) , you know what they say about Tricking Mother Nature:eek:
It depends on the way it is communicated and the way one perceives:rolleyes:

edit: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212992 read this one. <*-)

HQ:D
 
jamaica -

What you are referencing is the "Angle of Departure".. .which is what you CREATE when you adjust your sights. The lower the angle you create by moving your rear sight up the more you increase the Angle of Departure by tilting the front of the barrel up.

The bullet only rises above the line of sight (created by looking through the rear sight and past the front) because that line MUST angle downward in order to work. NO BULLET has a flat trajectory - they all follow the parabolic curve. You angle the barrel up, simply rotate the parabolic curve up as well..the round will fall neither faster nor slower in relation to the force of gravity.

I think the main difference between what you and I are saying (I think) is that you stated in an earlier post that the barrel angles upwards - I'm saying that if you are referencing the Angle of Departure then indeed, the barrel angles upwards if only artificially. However, if you are saying that the barrel angles up in the gun in a state of rest then I must disagree.

I shoot the C.A.R. system, and if you're familiar with that system the gun is fired at about a 30 degree inward tilt - and I can put rounds right where I want them out to 20-30m. I don't have a real desire to shoot my pistol accurrately past those distances, since my focus is on CQB - but in those cases we actually teach to level the gun out so that you can use the sights as they were meant to be used when lining up for a longer shot.

But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.
 
But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.
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Nuff said. These are all relevant arguments, but they don't apply to this thread, really.
 
Jamaica, Quinn.

It's obvious you both understand the concept and are basically saying the same thing, just choosing a different way to say it which is a communication failure. Anyhoo, yes, canting any firearm will cause the strike of the round to pull low and to the left or right. That's why I have a mini level on my rifle.

However, If you are so good with a pistol that you can hit targets far enough so precisely that the cant will actually throw your impact off in a consistant group (with a consistant cant, of course) then you are far better than I will ever be able to comprehend. Look up the drop of a .45 acp round at 50 yds at federals website. It's around 4" or something. The cant of a weapon does throw off the strike of the round but that's getting taken out of context. I know I'm not very precise at 50 yds, I'm certainly not holding groups that will be affected drastically by canting the pistol. The point is, by the time what you both are talking about would really matter you're already beyond the max effective range of a pistol anyway.

I think we're talking more of a low profile technique to shoot over a barricade at a normal engagement range for a pistol, say 30' or so. At this range I don't think canting will throw the strike of the round off enough to miss center mass.

Now, I'm not trying to defend canting a pistol. I'm certainly not gonna speak much for gangsta-style, because I think it's BS. However, it could be a tool used for what blackwater said, MAYBE to keep a low profile while shooting over a barrier. MAYBE. I'm pretty sure I won't be doing it.
 
I shoot handguns sideways at ranges all the time and nobody seems to care. Mostly because i'm actually hitting what i'm aiming at. Or should I say pointing at. I think shooting sideways if more of an efficient way of shooting if you have a small full auto gun. I once shot a Micro Uzi with a laser sight sideways and it seemed to be more easily controlable than shooting it normally with one hand.
 
Happy shooting

I invite you to the Northern Ca area and come to the "Gun Room" and we can shoot as many rounds and guns as you want. Hand gun is the name of the game or nothing larger than the M1 Carbine, Shotguns are ok.:)

This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis. :D

HQ
 
This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis.
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Deal, next time I'm up there.

Course of fire will be:


12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot from the kneeling position over the barricade(or table/rest/whatever they have

12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot while facing 90 degrees away from the target (strong side away)

Scores will be evenly weighted between the two shoots. Pistol must stock(more or less) and in a SD caliber(9mm, .40, .45 10mm)

Target will be a 5 ring at 21 feet.

You shoot uncanted, I will cant. Winner gets dinner, and more importantly the right to say I told you so.

Results will be posted here. :)
 
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I'll be there today

Training starts today, I have all the above, will probably go with the glocks.
I usually don't use rests, but hey.

Looking forward to it, I am not a rapid firing kind of guy but have done it in the past. This range does not allow to much stuff like double tap but I will talk to them.

We can make it interesting shoot both left and right handed and then both hands. Standing or kneeling makes no difference. I personally like the horse stance.

HQ:)
 
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