Gang Attack on Transit Train
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
- Status
I read it on the internets.....Hard question to answer. Only because of the quantity (30 vs 1). But knowing myself I would prepare to open fire if I felt my life threatened. Chances are the first hit might just cause the mob to ebb in sudden fear. Maybe some might run, then again maybe some might rush you. If I were to die that day then I have no choice. I am taking several to the Other Side with me. 
Lenord Smalls
Inactive
So, if you were on this train and you were carrying how would you have responded?
I’m going to make the assumption that I am alone, no loved ones or people I am responsible for. If I can keep my head. I will move to get as much space as practicable between myself and the assailants. This will better allow me to scan, have to keep my head on a swivel, can’t become mesmerized.
The more space, the more time I have to try to get my head around the situation. Making space hopefully will give me adequate time to safely and effectively accesses my pistol as a last resort.
Distance makes gun retention more manageable and is a prime responsibility.
What if they were attacking you?
This question would indicate that I have been taken completely by surprise, I’m being beaten and under the physical control be several able body men. Let me see now…. 24 against one.
I will do some bleeding, lose conciseness shortly. My gun will be taken from me and possibly used to kill me and several in the car.
What if they were not attacking you would you intervene?
Well there’s terror, at which point I will freeze up and be completely useless. If I can keep my head and this event is a strong arm robbery without to much mayhem than I hope I could be the best witness I could be.
Worst case scenario, with such a great disparity of force and in being in fear of great bodily harm or death than I have no choice.
If I make the decision to carry than I have a reasonability to hit only the threat, and that’s under stress, when nothing is going my way.
Correct, repetitive training and a proper mindset is what will give one a reasonable chance stopping the threat.
With most shooters, the “gun experts” the Hollywood heroes and worst of all the ones that carry, the safest place to be when they start shooting is right in front of them.
It has been my experience that the vast majority of those that carry cant shoot their way out of a wet paper bag and they never train in gun retention.
As I have already said.
Do you have the willingness to spend the energy to train properly, constantly, to develop the mussel memory necessary to perform instantly under surprise, stress and have the proper mental attitude to do what is necessary?
The answer is best summed up by
justjim75
“i have great mussel memory. i had clams last month at an italian place, oh, and oysters and beer a couple of weeks ago.”
I’m going to make the assumption that I am alone, no loved ones or people I am responsible for. If I can keep my head. I will move to get as much space as practicable between myself and the assailants. This will better allow me to scan, have to keep my head on a swivel, can’t become mesmerized.
The more space, the more time I have to try to get my head around the situation. Making space hopefully will give me adequate time to safely and effectively accesses my pistol as a last resort.
Distance makes gun retention more manageable and is a prime responsibility.
What if they were attacking you?
This question would indicate that I have been taken completely by surprise, I’m being beaten and under the physical control be several able body men. Let me see now…. 24 against one.
I will do some bleeding, lose conciseness shortly. My gun will be taken from me and possibly used to kill me and several in the car.
What if they were not attacking you would you intervene?
Well there’s terror, at which point I will freeze up and be completely useless. If I can keep my head and this event is a strong arm robbery without to much mayhem than I hope I could be the best witness I could be.
Worst case scenario, with such a great disparity of force and in being in fear of great bodily harm or death than I have no choice.
If I make the decision to carry than I have a reasonability to hit only the threat, and that’s under stress, when nothing is going my way.
Correct, repetitive training and a proper mindset is what will give one a reasonable chance stopping the threat.
With most shooters, the “gun experts” the Hollywood heroes and worst of all the ones that carry, the safest place to be when they start shooting is right in front of them.
It has been my experience that the vast majority of those that carry cant shoot their way out of a wet paper bag and they never train in gun retention.
As I have already said.
Do you have the willingness to spend the energy to train properly, constantly, to develop the mussel memory necessary to perform instantly under surprise, stress and have the proper mental attitude to do what is necessary?
The answer is best summed up by
justjim75
“i have great mussel memory. i had clams last month at an italian place, oh, and oysters and beer a couple of weeks ago.”
Last edited:
Baba Louie
New member
I might want to reconsider my meager little J frame if I go to Atlanta and ride the MARTA I reckon... and switch to my PLR-16. (I joke... kinda)
Gang of 30, drugs in their system (possibly, you never know but expect the worst), bravado/courage (from their POV), monkey dance = more power than a solo 2A citizen can muster, that's for sure. They win.
Pondering mode on...
How could or does one alter the odds (besides not being there or gaining serious distance)?
Body armor?
OC bomb and a gas mask? (again, I kid... kinda)
Travel in a well armed group of your friends with your own attitude showing? (w/ body armor, gas masks and several OC bombs?) Seems to be the best but 'tis an impractical solution. Maybe. Maybe not.
No matter how you look at it, a hurtin' is involved. Or submission. Or both. And lawsuits to face should I actually, you know, hurt anyone other than myself, be they BGs or innocent bystanders.
A no win. (note to self: avoid MARTA and wilding crowds when possible)
Gang of 30, drugs in their system (possibly, you never know but expect the worst), bravado/courage (from their POV), monkey dance = more power than a solo 2A citizen can muster, that's for sure. They win.
Pondering mode on...
How could or does one alter the odds (besides not being there or gaining serious distance)?
Body armor?
OC bomb and a gas mask? (again, I kid... kinda)
Travel in a well armed group of your friends with your own attitude showing? (w/ body armor, gas masks and several OC bombs?) Seems to be the best but 'tis an impractical solution. Maybe. Maybe not.
No matter how you look at it, a hurtin' is involved. Or submission. Or both. And lawsuits to face should I actually, you know, hurt anyone other than myself, be they BGs or innocent bystanders.
A no win. (note to self: avoid MARTA and wilding crowds when possible)
Amen Baba Louie! This kind of conversation does kind of make me wonder why I even bother to carry. I don't have a clue what I would have done or would do. The only reason I obtained my CC was because I have been in several situations where I felt very uncomfortable. I would not have been nearly as worried except I had my wife and two little girls on an occasion or two. BTW, this sort of rules out ever going to pro ball games or concerts if we are going to fully avoid public transit or strange crowds. Which, by the way, I have basically stopped going to these events for this type of reason. I carry now because I couldn't bear seeing my girls hurt or killed and at least want to be able to fight if that is in question. But, if I won't pull and shoot I would be better off with no gun....
I have even been a bit uncomfortable returning extremely late on the Disney buses and trains. Strange folks keep these late hours.
So, what is a fella to do?
I have even been a bit uncomfortable returning extremely late on the Disney buses and trains. Strange folks keep these late hours.
So, what is a fella to do?
Here's an instance of another train invasion where a passenger did fight back:
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=27100
To sum up, a Gurkha soldier armed with a kukri knife fought back against a gang of about 40 robbers invading a passenger train, killing 3 and wounding 8 before the rest fled. I think the story justifies the more levelheaded comments here:
1) He did not draw his weapon until passengers were threatened with serious physical harm. In the MARTA case passengers were beaten, but the article does not make it clear whether or not lives were in danger. It is impossible to tell without actually having been there.
2) Once the fight started, the robbers did NOT back down at the sight of a weapon. They kept fighting for 20 minutes even after some of their own were killed. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that 'just because they're criminals, they must be cowards'. A defender on the MARTA car may have faced a similar situation at least until the train reached the next stop.
3) The soldier did not even have a gun, but once he made the decision to fight he had a win-or-die mindset. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about capacity and ammo performance, but it seems those things are unimportant next to the mindset: if you have to fight, don't stop until you win.
4) A kukri cannot cause innocent casualties by way of missed shots or ricochet, so the soldier did not have to worry about something that a CCW on the MARTA would DEFINITELY have had to take into consideration. I personally would rather take a beating and lose my wallet than accidentally kill a bystander, or cause one to be killed through my actions.
http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=27100
To sum up, a Gurkha soldier armed with a kukri knife fought back against a gang of about 40 robbers invading a passenger train, killing 3 and wounding 8 before the rest fled. I think the story justifies the more levelheaded comments here:
1) He did not draw his weapon until passengers were threatened with serious physical harm. In the MARTA case passengers were beaten, but the article does not make it clear whether or not lives were in danger. It is impossible to tell without actually having been there.
2) Once the fight started, the robbers did NOT back down at the sight of a weapon. They kept fighting for 20 minutes even after some of their own were killed. It's dangerous and arrogant to assume that 'just because they're criminals, they must be cowards'. A defender on the MARTA car may have faced a similar situation at least until the train reached the next stop.
3) The soldier did not even have a gun, but once he made the decision to fight he had a win-or-die mindset. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about capacity and ammo performance, but it seems those things are unimportant next to the mindset: if you have to fight, don't stop until you win.
4) A kukri cannot cause innocent casualties by way of missed shots or ricochet, so the soldier did not have to worry about something that a CCW on the MARTA would DEFINITELY have had to take into consideration. I personally would rather take a beating and lose my wallet than accidentally kill a bystander, or cause one to be killed through my actions.
gearhounds
New member
Training, aggressive defense, and mindset in equal parts. A properly motivated individual with the right weapon can and obviously will succeed against superior numbers. A good blade like a kukri may actually be better than any pistol, as it never jams, or runs out of ammo as long as the bearer has the strength to wield it. Any knife, when weilded with intent will be extremely hard to take away. As I suggested earlier, a good knife/pistol combo would make for a formidable threat that most will shy away from attacking.
gearhounds
New member
For some reason, probably historically ingrained, knives are truly frightening at an instinctive level. Hell, if the gun runs dry, you have an effective blunt instrument to boot!
Everybody knows what it feels like to get cut. Knives are scary in a very practical, concrete way--you can imagine just what getting stabbed or cut would feel if you close your eyes.
Very few people know what it feels like to get shot. Guns are scary in a philosophical way. You KNOW it can seriously injure or kill you, but in your gut you don't really have any idea what that would feel like. And the method by which guns create injuries (little bits of metal propelled at invisible velocities) is too much like magic for people to completely grasp what's going on.
Baba Louie
New member
Or stick/knife... WITH good training, either combo is better than passive nada. Used in the OP topic tho... and maybe with the added courage and action of one or two other riders who are fed up... and seeing you/me being a stupid/brave/decisive "vigilante" (did I spell that right?). When in doubt, attack. right? Well hmmmmm. More than one? Vigilanti?
Which is really the answer. More than one. When the good citizens (plural) get totally fed up, they will and do act. And it ain't pretty from what I read.
You see the young hooligans about to get on, verbally alert "Trouble Coming!" or something then try to get one or two or more other 'refuse to be a victim' riders eyes, quickly determine to back each other with a quick nod... or is everyone looking down and away knowing whats coming? Dunno. Never been there. How fast can you sell an idea to strangers?
Pack or clan/tribe mentality behavior is important for survival. Sometimes you might have to join in or form one of your own for safe travel or even day to day... nothing really new about it, if you think about history at all.
Sometime, the good GUYS (plural) do win. But I'd really really try to avoid that whole situation alone or with vulnerable family nearby if ever I could.
Gun, knife stick and my rugby team all carrying same... (disclaimer... no rugby team) O.K. change that; Cricket or softball team better than rugby in one regard equipment-wise.
But it begins with the mindset.
For all the good that will do ..... IF the prosecutor decides it is worth his time, AND IF the perps don't plea out of it, AND IF a non-sympathetic jury can be found, AND IF the judge sees fit to max them out ...... THEN they'll get a full ride scholarship to Street Criminal Finishing School.
Fight Recidivism: STBDRT.
30 of them? They'd definitely get me, if the first dozen or so are suicidal. I'm going to pick a leader, and pour les encouragements des autres....... If they are suicidally brave, they'll also have to avoid slipping on the couple dozen empties rolling around on the floor.
Just because the facts indicate that most attackers will likely flee upon shots being fired doesn't mean that those of us touting them are assuming such will happen.
If I'm caught on that train with a 5 shot snub nose revolver and this attack happens I will (hopefully) react the same as if I was armed with 50 shots. I will not take a beating. I have decided to fight in this situation.
I fully understand the risks should these 30 gang youths decide to make a determined attack. I also understand the odds. Odds are they run. So if I do nothing I will surely sustain a beating which could leave me dead or brain damaged. If I act I will likely repel the threat and survive unscathed.
Doc Intrepid
New member
The problem with assuming they run, my friend, is that in an enclosed subway car there is no exit to run out - until the train arrives at the next station.threegun said:
They cannot run.
Alaska444, There are dozens for every one you produce that show the bad guys running away at sight of the gun or after shots are fired.
Its not magic its instinctive. Most creatures have a self preservation instinct. They flee at the sight of mortal danger. Humans are included.
Just as most civilians run from an armed attacker......like Virginia tech or ft hood, most bad guys are inclined to do the same.
Doc Intrepid
New member
This is just one option, and clearly only useful when things have arrived at a legally defined imminent threat to your life or that of others, etc. IOW given the alternatives of death or a beating that may leave you in a wheelchair, you have little to lose at that point.
(I wasn't there, and have never been in such a situation...so what the hell do I know?)
A handgun pointed generally at a crowd of gangbangers is only an indirect threat to any one of them.
It needs to be made a very specific threat to at least one of the crowd.
Select the loudest mouth, or the biggest threat; point the pistol at that individual, and make sure he understands that - if activities do not cease - he himself will be in the morgue before sundown. ('They may eventually get you, etc., but regardless of what his other homies do, he himself will be the first meat to hit the deck'.) Make it personal. See if he can't control the rest of the crowd until the train arrives at the next station.
An imperfect response, sure, but in some way you need to define terms down to 2 individuals - you and one other. (You may need to do this repetitively until your ammunition runs out, but regardless of bravado, I suspect that few gangbangers individually would choose to be shot down like Jihad Martyrs. So you give them - individually - a choice...)
Just my humble opinion. Your mileage may most certainly vary...
(I wasn't there, and have never been in such a situation...so what the hell do I know?)
A handgun pointed generally at a crowd of gangbangers is only an indirect threat to any one of them.
It needs to be made a very specific threat to at least one of the crowd.
Select the loudest mouth, or the biggest threat; point the pistol at that individual, and make sure he understands that - if activities do not cease - he himself will be in the morgue before sundown. ('They may eventually get you, etc., but regardless of what his other homies do, he himself will be the first meat to hit the deck'.) Make it personal. See if he can't control the rest of the crowd until the train arrives at the next station.
An imperfect response, sure, but in some way you need to define terms down to 2 individuals - you and one other. (You may need to do this repetitively until your ammunition runs out, but regardless of bravado, I suspect that few gangbangers individually would choose to be shot down like Jihad Martyrs. So you give them - individually - a choice...)
Just my humble opinion. Your mileage may most certainly vary...
- Status