Gang Attack on Transit Train

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Mnero, You may be right. We cannot know an outcome in advance. What I do know is that I will not take a beating from anyone especially a group. When my turn to be beaten comes up so does my firearm. If the bad guys comply and retreat it over. If not its on.

If we are playing odds I would bet that the mere sight of a firearm would end the attack.

A practice game I play once in a while would definitely benefit this scenario. Set up 4 to 6 targets in a semi circle. Open fire one shot each only as you fire move horizontally toward the first target. In theory this buys you a fraction or two seconds to complete the swing before the last couple guys can reach you. I developed this because of my encounter with the 10 plus teens.

Would be tough in a subway car but its the closest thing I've got to dealing with alot of targets at close range while trying to prevent getting over run.
 
Couple of points here; first, merely bringing a gun into the picture may not be enough by itself to stop the act. But adding a formidable command presence will go miles over someone brandishing that does not sound like they mean business.

As far as the 2 adults stopping the action, someone stated it was never indicated whether or not they were armed. In this scenario, I think it proves that a determined action trumped the toads higher numbers. If they were armed, the 24 or so obviously didn't want to tangle with them, even though they outnumbered them 12 to 1. If they were not armed, it proves it even more.

I don't think any of the posters advocating action here are taking on a "Rambo" persona by doing so. Mind set, training, and command presence work on larger groups; it has for me, and that never involved rushing headlong into the fray.

And if the thinkable happens (I don't like the term unthinkable, as it implies one cannot keep their head and tactically act), looking at the interior pic on the train, you could pick a choke point to limit the toads ability to use numbers to their advantage, such as just a step this side of the 2 upright poles next to the seated guy on the left. Not a great funnel, I admit, but start filling it with thugs, and it becomes harder to press an attack.

Lastly, this is not a riot by hardened lifer's that will operate as a mob. This is a largely a pack of cowards, led by a couple of stronger willed cowards. I agree, if deadly force is called for and you drop the leaders, the rest of the pack will do whatever you tell them to do to stay alive. My .02.
 
It seems a mistake to me to assume that these 'gangbangers' are cowards. My old man used to say to me 'everyone always says stand up to bullies cause they are cowards at heart, but I am telling you to beware of bullies and take them down first and fast cause they usually are dangerous' course he was assuming a one on one situation at a school.
 
Bernard Goetz had the right solution, but he had five shots for four goblins.
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No, he didn't. The Goetz case teaches us several salient lessons, but effective self-defense is not one of them.

Honestly, if I were caught in that situation, I don't think I'd be able to do much. As others have mentioned, one shot might spook the gang. It might.

So, what are we left with after that? A mob animal that's spooked and has nowhere to go. All I've done is a) made it more aggressive, and b) focused that on myself.

Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger.
 
alaska

I can't speak from my own experience fortunately, but these kids are faced with guns pointed at them all the time in these gangs. One of the points my CCW instructor who is also an LEO, (expert firearms witness, owner of the number one rated gun range in America at the last shot show, 20 years in military police, author of tactical firearms books, etc, you get the picture) stated that he has witnessed the reactions of many criminals with guns pointed at them and most often it doesn't phase them.

Criminals know in fact that most folks will not shoot even when pointing the gun, they just don't want to hurt anyone. His point was that if you pull your gun thinking that will scare most criminals, good luck. You have to be willing to shoot. The case I posted above in CDA had 8 thugs, two were shot, the other 6 pummeled the man being attacked. I wouldn't bet on these creeps freaking out because you have a little gun pointed at them. Most care little for their life or yours for that matter and could care less if they are shot or not. It is a way of life to show no fear in these gangs. 30 kids rioting on a train, bad situation plain and simple.
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I agree or possibly that is the wrong terminology: in this situation one would need to shoot if drawing. that would always depend on the specific situation at hand and also would have a final decision made by the innocent pulling his firearm. taking control of the situation quickly would be very important & the less time for the whole event to play out the better. giving the mob time to think can be a fatal mistake. I hope I'm not the test case for this one, but I'm not surrendering unless I have no choice in the matter. I would draw(and shoot) in a heartbeat on MARTA if I had to.
 
So, far still no arrest, but the news reported that they are apparently closing in on someone.

MARTA had all the PR Team out today explaining how safe the system was and that this was an isolated incident. There is a big vote coming up concerning increasing taxes so they can expand the system into other municipalities, so I am sure they want to make this go away fast. Guess how I’ll vote…
 
125gr doing 1,600+ is no joke. Neither is the noise factor...I guarantee you, those punks won't have ever heard anything like that.
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No different than having an ice pick jabbed in your ear.

Evil doesn't impress me. Could I impress them if the situation called for it? Imagine something like this could impress the whole planet.
 
Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger.
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Urban yuppie,

Did you miss the part about passengers being smashed in the face, beaten and robbed of their wallets while they lay injured on the floor?
 
Nnobby45... did you miss the part where most of the passengers did not get beaten, or where the beating of the flight attendants stopped when two adult males who apparently did NOT produce weapons intervened?

There isn't a clear-cut answer to a situation like this. There are far too many variables.

For instance, let's say we had the best defensive case. That's the one where I'm at the far end of the car from where these teens enter, and can maximize the defensive funnel effect of the center aisle. Best odds to hold them at bay with a firearm.

But where are the other passengers? Can I safely or ethically open fire?

Then again, if I were seated at the near end to where they enter, I have a potential to be immediately enveloped if I do something to draw attention, such as drawing a weapon. BG's all around; bad to begin with, but now I might have to fire in all directions while under immediate physical attack. Once again, can I really avoid putting other passengers at high degree of risk?

Now, am I going to submit to a beating? Probably not. No telling where that would go...

Would I want to try to intervene if other passengers were under attack? Of course. (But as noted, the two people who successfully intervened do not seem to have used guns.)

My point is that trying to de-escalate or at least non-escalate would probably be the best initial strategy, due in large part to the presence of innocent parties in a confined space.

And, as Tom Servo has pointed out on more than one occasion, nothing in his wallet is irreplaceable.

So I'd give them Tom Servo's wallet, and hope they left relatively peaceably. :D
 
This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread..but jim march..that is a sweet looking pistol man..lol..and im sure if u had to pull it out on the subway the thugs may not run off at first because they would be trying to figure out what the heck that thing is...and I know u ain't gona say..( neither would I )...but what in the world do u keep bloting out on top of that pic lol
 
Flamethrower/grenade launcher. Not approved for CCW use.

Custer could have used it at the Little Big Horn. His carry on that day were a pair of ivory handled 3-inch barreled Webley 45s. He knew he was heading for CQ trouble.
 
chadstrickland: here's the video of it in operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZAGpJr5RsU

It's the world's only self-unloading revolver working on gas pressure :).

Like I said: next step, add clip-in spring-loaded feed tubes through the other side's recoil shield. 12+ round capacity. Oh yeah. "Creature from the SASS Lagoon" :).
 
"Fair enough, let's blow them all away like zombies. How far away do we draw and shoot? What actions will jolt us into shooting? I am a bit puzzled by the fact that people really believe just pointing a pistol is going to scare people who grow up with violence in their homes and streets. I know the first time someone pulled knife on me freaked me out to no end, this is a very common occurrence with these folks."

Me Too: You do not draw your weapon unless you intend to fire it after a short warning. If you don't intend to fire, leave it in the holster until you do, period. In fact, that can be said for most weapons.
The only exception I can think of is in an enforcement action, on a sweep. Then one would need to be prepared. Now really, how many here would be in that situation?
The subway situation is a LOSE; if you are in it you lose. A cool head reacting to the situation is called for, moment by moment. I do hope I never find myself in a situaion with more than 6 thugs with the potential to explode on me. G*D bless us all in even that circumstance.
Let's hope none of us ever experiences anything like that.
 
I'll have this:
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Jim, that gun will give you a few moments as they try to figure out *** is that? :) the mother of invention and all that :)


Worst case here is some idiot hijacking the hay ride wagon..... only to find all are armed as this is Iowa :) and we all have a permit to carry it seems
 
" Frankly, in that situation, I'd simply play the part of the ineffectual urban yuppie and give them my wallet. There's nothing in there that can't be replaced, and I wouldn't be placing lives (both innocent and criminal) in danger. "


And now they know where you live making a second stop likely. ( Gee, he gave up his wallet so easily, might as well take stuff from his home since he won't fight back. )

If no one fights back while being robbed, what prevents the thieves from striking again. . ( and again ) ?
 
I lost a good freind to an armed robber years ago. He "gave up" too. Took a 22 right behind the ear at contact range for it.

No. Sorry, "your money or your life" is not a new social contract. I will do my absolute best to put very serious bullets into anybody who says that to me, until they stop saying it or forever can't.
 
Well, they could probably kill, cripple, or maim you now, or they might come by your house later.... In military terms, deal with the 5 meter threat before engaging the 15 meter threat.

However, this does bring up the possible tactic of carrying a throwdown wallet, that doesn't have a real ID, credit cards, or anything linking to your home or person. Some cash and a fake credit card... I'd say fake ID, but that might not be legally kosher.

Throwdown wallets or money-clips have been recommended in various overseas travel security briefings as things people might want in higher crime areas.

I don't have one myself, but it's not a bad idea.
 
my youth really shows in times like this...and I know im green to..but I have to say neat:cool: to the above post...never thought of that...pretty smart idea..I also dnt know about the fake idea...I bet it would probably be up to the cop..I mean u could have your name on there as john doe or something obvious that a hasty criminal might now catch but a gun store checkin a back ground or a cop would see in a second
 
WWMAD? (What would Massad Ayoob do?)

MLeake: "Throwdown wallets or money-clips have been recommended in various overseas travel security briefings as things people might want in higher crime areas."
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Massad Ayoob, in "In the Gravest Extreme" (anybody here who has not yet read it, go get a copy right now!) advocated having a $5 dollar bill wrapped around a matchbook (to give it heft so you can toss it to someone still several feet away). He says:
If I encounter a bunch of punks I can't avoid by crossing the street, and if they give me a lot of jive, I'll toss the fiver to the ringleader...I'll tell him I don't want any trouble, and suggest he buy the boys a round of beers on me.
Maybe it won't work. Maybe it'll just whet his appetite to go for my wallet. I'm betting that it will satisfy the ego need that drove him to confront me. You may think it's a [Charlie Sierra] approach. Maybe it is. I only know that it's easily worth 5 or 10 bucks to me not to have to shoot somebody.
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That book was copyrighted in 1980. Allowing for inflation, the minimum today would be $20, and even that might not do it. But the idea of a throwaway wallet, with some cash and "credit cards", might still be sound, if only to give credence to your claim (should you survive!) that you tried to comply rather than escalate the situation.
 
So I'd give them Tom Servo's wallet, and hope they left relatively peaceably.
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Yep, in fact...hey, wait a minute! Let's not be so hasty...;)

I only know that it's easily worth 5 or 10 bucks to me not to have to shoot somebody.
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Precisely. If I draw, I may be escalating the situation from a strong-arm flash mob to an outright massacre. The plain fact is, there are far too many variables. Presentation of a weapon might stop or mitigate the violence, or it may make things worse. Firing might work, or it might exacerbate things. My actions could end up getting people hurt who otherwise wouldn't have been.

I'm going to do everything I can before I decide for myself. I'm certainly going to do it before I arbitrarily decide it for everyone else on the car.

I worry that some of the more cavalier attitudes about violence betray a lack of training and experience. Some of us have done brain detail. Trust me, it's no fun to see, and I imagine less fun to inflict.
 
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