Gang Attack on Transit Train
- Thread starter BarryLee
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I can't speak from my own experience fortunately, but these kids are faced with guns pointed at them all the time in these gangs. One of the points my CCW instructor who is also an LEO, (expert firearms witness, owner of the number one rated gun range in America at the last shot show, 20 years in military police, author of tactical firearms books, etc, you get the picture) stated that he has witnessed the reactions of many criminals with guns pointed at them and most often it doesn't phase them.
Criminals know in fact that most folks will not shoot even when pointing the gun, they just don't want to hurt anyone. His point was that if you pull your gun thinking that will scare most criminals, good luck. You have to be willing to shoot. The case I posted above in CDA had 8 thugs, two were shot, the other 6 pummeled the man being attacked. I wouldn't bet on these creeps freaking out because you have a little gun pointed at them. Most care little for their life or yours for that matter and could care less if they are shot or not. It is a way of life to show no fear in these gangs. 30 kids rioting on a train, bad situation plain and simple.
Criminals know in fact that most folks will not shoot even when pointing the gun, they just don't want to hurt anyone. His point was that if you pull your gun thinking that will scare most criminals, good luck. You have to be willing to shoot. The case I posted above in CDA had 8 thugs, two were shot, the other 6 pummeled the man being attacked. I wouldn't bet on these creeps freaking out because you have a little gun pointed at them. Most care little for their life or yours for that matter and could care less if they are shot or not. It is a way of life to show no fear in these gangs. 30 kids rioting on a train, bad situation plain and simple.
spacecoast
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Agreed, these guys aren't a bunch of mindless bloodthirsty zombies who keep advancing until their heads are removed. I suspect that most of them would scatter at the sound of gunfire, especially if a comrade went down.
Silent Titan
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I agree with the idea that would probably scatter if you shot one or two of them on the street, but just like everyone else on the train they have nowhere to run. I would worry about it becoming a fight or flight situation, with no way out there is a very real chance they will decide to come at you with full force and now insted of a beating they will be looking for revenge. That being said it might have been a good situation to pull out the 4oz of fox pepper spray and only use the ccw for if there are any very determined punks. would have ruined the day for every person on the train but im sure there would be gang members to arrest when the police got there. just my $0.02, im no expert.
chadstrickland
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I agree to a extent that the gang bangers wouldn't feel afraid if a gun was simply pointed at them but if I was forced to draw my weapon then the most threating hard core one of them is going down first..I mean one shot in the head if I could get a clean one..and then..its a cluster. if they had guns I would probably get killed pretty quick if they had knives and melee weapons then im sure after there leader head popped open then they rest would disperse quickly..if they insisted then I would try to take the other leaders..if there was any..but with a mouse gun...I would still get killed 
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I've seen what my ammo out of my gun can do to a bowling ball. Yes, I was sorta writing in humor mode but seriously, I'm NOT kidding about the "abstract art on the ceiling" part. 125gr doing 1,600+ is no joke. Neither is the noise factor...I guarantee you, those punks won't have ever heard anything like that.
I really believe that both factors would make a 357 sixgun a better choice than a high-cap 9. That one first shot is going to go beyond merely "get their attention". It's going to horrify 'em. Not to mention make most of the rest of the train want to puke.
I really believe that both factors would make a 357 sixgun a better choice than a high-cap 9. That one first shot is going to go beyond merely "get their attention". It's going to horrify 'em. Not to mention make most of the rest of the train want to puke
.Fair enough, let's blow them all away like zombies. How far away do we draw and shoot? What actions will jolt us into shooting? I am a bit puzzled by the fact that people really believe just pointing a pistol is going to scare people who grow up with violence in their homes and streets. I know the first time someone pulled knife on me freaked me out to no end, this is a very common occurrence with these folks.
I have preached at a maximum security prison with murderers and rapists locked away for life without parole. One in particular described his state of mind before he went to jail that he didn't care if he lived or died, nor did he care if his victims lived or died. Have any of you folks actually spoken to these gang bangers and heard how they live and how they think? Being threatened and dealing with that threat before them is a routine occurrence in these gang bangers lives and is how that they make their reputation on the street.
I would not over estimate their reaction to the presence of a gun, nor would I underestimate the ability of a gang of thugs to overcome you. I have seen the scars of gun shots and knife wounds on these folks. I don't think a single white boy with a gun is going to put a whole lot of fear into these creeps myself from the hardened creeps that I have met and preached to personally. Showing fear is the last thing these creeps will do, it is just not the way that they live on the streets, nor in the prisons where they spend considerable time. That is just not their culture. My vote is you lose either way whether you do nothing or whether you draw and shoot. Even if you drive them away, get ready to deal with the DA that will lock you and put you in jail. Even if you win, you will lose.
For myself, I will never ride on MARTA or any subway system for that matter. Why expose yourself to that kind of threat in the first place. Your options are limited and poor no matter what the scenario in such a situation. Don't go there in the first place.
I have preached at a maximum security prison with murderers and rapists locked away for life without parole. One in particular described his state of mind before he went to jail that he didn't care if he lived or died, nor did he care if his victims lived or died. Have any of you folks actually spoken to these gang bangers and heard how they live and how they think? Being threatened and dealing with that threat before them is a routine occurrence in these gang bangers lives and is how that they make their reputation on the street.
I would not over estimate their reaction to the presence of a gun, nor would I underestimate the ability of a gang of thugs to overcome you. I have seen the scars of gun shots and knife wounds on these folks. I don't think a single white boy with a gun is going to put a whole lot of fear into these creeps myself from the hardened creeps that I have met and preached to personally. Showing fear is the last thing these creeps will do, it is just not the way that they live on the streets, nor in the prisons where they spend considerable time. That is just not their culture. My vote is you lose either way whether you do nothing or whether you draw and shoot. Even if you drive them away, get ready to deal with the DA that will lock you and put you in jail. Even if you win, you will lose.
For myself, I will never ride on MARTA or any subway system for that matter. Why expose yourself to that kind of threat in the first place. Your options are limited and poor no matter what the scenario in such a situation. Don't go there in the first place.
robmkivseries70
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I have seen the notion of going after the leader several times here. This is a good strategy. When you are out in public watch the groups of young people, even the benign groups. Almost all will have some sort of 'leader', usually referred to as the "Alpha male". Female gangs will have an "Alpha Female" as well. It's not as common, but it happens. Picking out the leader is a good skill to have.
Be a 'people watcher'!
Best,
Rob
Be a 'people watcher'!Best,
Rob
chadstrickland
New member
And to answer the preacher post I for one have yet to meet a hardcore gang where everyone in there are blood thirsty killers...if u see a group of a 100 gang bangers..probably half of them are soldiers the other half cannon fodder..and of the 50 soldiers..probably 2 or 3 know what there doing...now I do live in alabama not that many gangs like there is in texas or california but still...most of them join the gang for protection and to make a lil money...there are only a few that do the real work..and normally unless there very good u can spot them by the way the others treat them....its not hard
Folks, take a look at the "mentors" of these young thugs:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/rampage-pelican-bay-prison-riot.html
The riots continued for 30 minutes despite tear gas and live ammo with 16 prisoners shot. These thugs have serious recriminations if they don't fight, in fact, cowardice in the face of confrontation will likely get that person beat up or worse by their own gang.
Here, take a look at a real gang riot. It took three hours to clean up the streets. Feel good about your one man crusade on a crowed subway? Not me. A mob is a frightening force indeed.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/rampage-mardi-gras-mayhem.html
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/rampage-pelican-bay-prison-riot.html
The riots continued for 30 minutes despite tear gas and live ammo with 16 prisoners shot. These thugs have serious recriminations if they don't fight, in fact, cowardice in the face of confrontation will likely get that person beat up or worse by their own gang.
Here, take a look at a real gang riot. It took three hours to clean up the streets. Feel good about your one man crusade on a crowed subway? Not me. A mob is a frightening force indeed.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/rampage-mardi-gras-mayhem.html
Threegun I am a combat vet and I can tell you from personal experience, it aint like the movies, as some of you seem to think. Frankly I am a little dismayed by how 'tough' some of you seem to think you are. Weapons don't make you tough, training, experience and a clear head are your best allies, not bravado.
Riots and 25 youth gang members like apples and oranges......they aren't the same. I was once threatened by 10 or so unfriendly youths. As they tried to surround me I was forced to pull my firearm. Back then (don't laugh) I was toting an intratec category 9 pistol. Not enough rounds to give everybody a single hit. Thankfully the air left their sails just at the sight of the gun. Had they continued I am convinced that the brakes would have been put on after the first friend fell.
I'm not suggesting that a determined mob isn't frightening but again not many folks like rushing a machinegun nest. Only the most determined will even try or perhaps some that think they can get to you before you can shoot them.
a machine gun nest is a fortified position, you will find nothing like that on a subway; a plastic seat maybe but not much more. I understand how difficult it is to admit that some situations are beyond our control, but there are times when we must accept that. That doesnt mean surrender; it just means do only that which will not make things worse for you and the others with you(everyone cept the perps).
I carry a pistol (and other tools) for my protection and that of my family. If the situation has deteriorated to the point that I am in fear for my life or fearful of serious bodily injury, and my options are to quietly acquiesce to being maimed, crippled or killed, or to gather up an honor guard to accompany me to Valhalla, I know what my choice will be. It doesn't matter if it's a gang rampaging in a train or a robbery in a convenience store, I will not submit and go down quietly. I have given this careful consideration over a period of time and made my decision: I will not be herded to slaughter.
Whether this would have been an appropriate action on this train, I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anybody who is commenting in this thread. But I do know where my line in the sand is. No false bravado, just fact.
Whether this would have been an appropriate action on this train, I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anybody who is commenting in this thread. But I do know where my line in the sand is. No false bravado, just fact.
My god man why are you insisting that some of us are locked in movie fantasy? Who said anything about bravado? Who said weapons make them tough? You continue to make assumptions. We disagree here again. I submit that a 5 shot snub nose would be sufficient to survive this event (I am of course assuming that the carrier is properly trained). I base my opinion on my personal expierience in a similar event plus many other video's plus the human beings natural desire to self preservation. You opinion is based on combat and riots neither of which is relevant in this case.
You are fixated on the numbers, one vs 25. How can one man defeat 25? I don't pretend to be able to defeat such odds. I can however defeat the closest most immediate bad guys to me until my gun runs dry. I believe in this case even 5 shots would be enough.
I thank you for your service.
It was an example I used to prove my point that advancing in the face of mortal danger is difficult. Nobody wants to rush the machinegun nest. As a combat vet you should understand this more than the rest of us. It takes an extremely brave and determined man to do so.
It is exactely the same in civilization. Just plain hard to advance on death.
5 shots might be enough for you to survive the event, but I doubt it would deescalate the event. My point is that shooting it out with the perps is a bad idea as it is likely to result in alot of colateral damage and may well get you killed. Once the shooting starts it will be fight or flight for the perps just as it is for everyone else, as soon as they showed up. Many of the perps may well fight, these kids are used to violence and even using violence, not always lethal violence, but violence. It is hard to imagine how a single person or several uncoordinated armed citizens could do anything but make the situation worse then it was.
Unless you consider the the third option--- which would be drawing your weapon in between the first two. Drawing a weapon when a violent attack looks imminent sounds like a good tactic to me. Imminent would include other people being assaulted.
Don't know the specifics on that train, but I remember a fellow named Reginald Denny who surrendered like a meek little lamb and suffered brain damage to the extent that he "just doesn't have any animosity" toward those who crushed his skull and laughed about it while blood poured out of his head.
Denny wasn't armed, but even among folks who carry, there seems to be those looking for a way to justify surrendering. Then there are those looking for a way to fight back
.Don't know how things are layed out on the transportation system, but BASIC alertness and planning taught to those who carry would put you at one end or the other so you don't end up between two groups of thugs.
I'd rather envision a bunch of punks coming toward me down a narrow aisle thru gun fire slowed by having to step over the bodies of their friends fast piling up on the floor.
Been more than one mob of thugs back off after a couple of 'em hit the deck. They might even hurt each other fighting to be the first out the door when the train stopped.
NO, I don't know that it would happen that way, but that's a better scenario to envision than looking for a way to give up and surrender. Isn't it? It's called mindset.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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You know what's really interesting to me about the pics of the exterior and interior of those trains?
They're *exactly* the same as BART - Bay Area Rapid Transit (San Francisco/Oakland/etc.). I mean right down to the seating positions, door width, the works. Cars probably come from the same place.
So I *have* been there. I backed down four lunatics who were kicking and stomping somebody in the head. Two had claw hammers. I had a visible knife and unknown to everybody else present (and the cops afterwards!), a four-shot .22Mag minirevolver. I came out of that physically and legally intact and got the downed party out with no more than a concussion.
I don't have to guess. I *know* for a fact I'll stand up to a wolfpack of thugs. With one big difference. Instead of this:
I'll have this:
...which, in another month or two, is going to have a tube-magazine-based feed system for 12+ round capacity and the ability to stick new 8rd feed tubes in as fast as most people can swap 1911 mags.
(For those that don't know, I'm in Tucson AZ these days...)
They're *exactly* the same as BART - Bay Area Rapid Transit (San Francisco/Oakland/etc.). I mean right down to the seating positions, door width, the works. Cars probably come from the same place.
So I *have* been there. I backed down four lunatics who were kicking and stomping somebody in the head. Two had claw hammers. I had a visible knife and unknown to everybody else present (and the cops afterwards!), a four-shot .22Mag minirevolver. I came out of that physically and legally intact and got the downed party out with no more than a concussion.
I don't have to guess. I *know* for a fact I'll stand up to a wolfpack of thugs. With one big difference. Instead of this:
I'll have this:
...which, in another month or two, is going to have a tube-magazine-based feed system for 12+ round capacity and the ability to stick new 8rd feed tubes in as fast as most people can swap 1911 mags.
(For those that don't know, I'm in Tucson AZ these days...)
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