Game over for the 40 S&W. Say it ain't so!

Will BearArms... Excellent thread you have here! And I'm very pleased to be a part of it.

I've been shooting a wide range of revolver and then pistol calibers for many years.

When .40S&W first came out, I picked up a couple of Browning HiPowers in .40 and LOVED how they felt and how comfortably they shot. The BHP 40 was designed specifically for 40, FN didn't just re-chamber the 9mm BHP into forty.

I added an M&P40 Compact right after that - love shooting this pistol too! It was designed around .40 caliber, as well.

Then I tried the Glock 23 and didn't like how it felt... I found it to be a bit uncomfortable to shoot and really, not all that much fun. This model was not designed specifically for forty; it is a 9mm pistol rechambered to .40 caliber. And I think that is the primary reason why it does not handle forty caliber nearly as comfortably as other pistol models do.

My next forty was an STI Edge, which is such a magnificent pistol that makes shooting forty feel like a mild nine.

After that, I added a full size M&P40, which has really cemented my appreciation for the platform AND the caliber.

Now, most recently, I have added a couple of Sig P320s in forty caliber. These also fire forty incredibly comfortably and enjoyably.

So, aside from the Glock 23 experience, I have found .40S&W to be a really enjoyable caliber to shoot.

And after years of carrying pistols in all three calibers (9,40,45) I have settled on .40S&W as my favorite carry caliber in my favorite pistols: M&P40, M&P40C, and P320 40 Carry and P320 40 Compact.

Why forty?

I can shoot .40S&W a little better than .45auto in a fast and frenzied style of shooting (how it is likely to be in a defensive situation) - just about as well as I can do with 9mm. In a mid-size to full-size pistol that is designed for forty, I don't feel much difference between 40 and 9mm +P. Forty is a heavier caliber with more momentum than 9mm, enabling it to bust through obstacles (like bones or other barriers) better than 9mm can. And forty has nearly the capacity of 9mm. So, for me I like that forty has a bit of an edge ballistically over 9mm, with close to the same capacity - and I can shoot it about as well as 9mm. So forty is THE happy medium caliber between 45asuto and 9mm.

I do prefer 9mm in very small guns, like the P938 and PM9, so it is my caliber of choice when I have no option to carry somewhat larger pistols, like the M&P40C or the P320.

I have no doubt that forty will continue as a very mainstream caliber for many, many years to come.

Nine mm has really zoomed in popularity due to the huge bubble in sales of very small and pocket-type guns. With these small guns, 9mm makes a lot of sense and very small guns have been all the rage over the last five years or so. Thus, 9mm has really zoomed into first place for sales. But that doesn't take a thing away from forty, in my view. Forty, fired from a mid-size or full-size pistol remains my #1 choice for defense and carry purposes.

Among my top choices for defense/carry use:
M&P40


M&P40C


Sig P320 Carry 40


Sig P320 Full Size 40


STI Edge


I sure do love forty! :). Long live .40S&W.
 
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Lots of good arguments here for keeping your .40 S&W and lots of good arguments for moving to another caliber. There is another option for when the .40 is hard to come by and if you don't want to order the ammo online. You can start reloading your own to practice with and buy a box or two of commercial when you can find it, to have in your gun for home defense. It does not cost a fortune to get started reloading and you get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it.
Just my $.02.

Shoot Safe and Often
 
DHart: said:
...Then I tried the Glock 23 and didn't like how it felt... I found it to be a bit uncomfortable to shoot and really, not all that much fun. This model was not designed specifically for forty; it is a 9mm pistol rechambered to .40 caliber. And I think that is the primary reason why it does not handle forty caliber nearly as comfortably as other pistol models do....
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My Gen4 Glock 21 made my Gen4 Glock 22 expendable in a hurry:eek: I do not miss the "BTF's" even after the ejector upgrade. I think I got a bad apple Glock, not a fun experience. I replaced an HK USP40 that I liked, and I wish I still had, for an HK45 that I like a lot better:cool:
 
"It ain't so"... Here's one of my fave range guns... Beretta 96 in .40...

 

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I saw a 'why does it have to be either-or' post above, and even while I understand not everyone wants to buy every firearm in every caliber available, I think there's some sense in selecting the firearm first and the caliber second when it comes to carry. Not sure if that really makes a lot of sense...I'm drinking at the moment.

Anyway, I carry .45, .40 and 10mm mostly due to what I feel is comfy at the moment. This isn't based on the chambering, it's just based on the gun I own...I have one in each caliber that's suitable for carry, it's that simple.

I find .40 fun to shoot, cheap to load (used brass, if I ever have to buy it again in my lifetime, is about as plentiful as politcal opinions), and cartridge capacity is right up there with the best of them in a concealable package. My recommendation is to LOOK at the SW M&P compact. Why? Because I own one in .45 and find it a Gift from Heaven. My own .40 carry is a Kahr DAO K40, and while I love it, can't recommend it as a first choice because it's a lot of work to shoot...at least for me.

Is .40 the best thing since hydraulic brakes...I doubt it. Is it a compromise? Well, every solution to a problem is. For cheap shooting a lot of handloads fast...it's the best thing in MY inventory. It does very well for me in IDPA, and when I carry it, I feel better equipped than I would be without a gun, and sure as hell better equipped than if I was carrying many other 'pocket gun' cartridges.

I can't say I 'love' it, but .40SW 180gr Gold Dots make me feel I'll do okay because I know how to dive for cover and still maybe hit a moving target. I just don't worry 'effectiveness' of cartridges...I know myself well enough to know 99% of my issue will be simply the first 500 milliseconds of deciding whether I need to draw and fire...or not.

Okay just one more thing...my experience is that with smaller handguns I really had to give my weak hand a LOT of time to learn and grow. This may not be your case, but for me, strong hand was king with stuff like the P220 and even the M&P. Come along the little guns, and I found weak hand had a lot more responsibilities. Maybe this should have been the case all along, but little guns (Kahr K40, Glock G29) emphasized 'you can't do it alone'. Shooting fast and accurately was a new game for weak hand. Took a lot of time and a lot of shooting to change habits and make 'em permanent.

Not sure this makes any difference btw 40 and 9. I'd say if I bought a Nano in 9 I'd find out how much left hand didn't know.

.45?

My advice is simply this (and it's a bit joking, don't want a controversy here): find your reason NOT to carry 45. Then solve the problem. But all joking aside, you may be lucky enough to find the handgun YOU shoot with total accuracy, speed and confidence. That should be The One. Even if it's a .380.
 
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It's a thinking man's caliber.
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No, it's not. That's the prerogative of the 10mm AUTO. The .40, like the .357 Sig, is merely a derivative, after-thought cartridge.

I will concede that you make that case well. That's a very different assertion than, it is the thinking man's caliber.
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Junior varsity semantics getting in the way of the facts. :rolleyes:

Okay, let's review: the thinking pistolero chooses the 10mm AUTO.

Game over for the sad-sack .40S&W. :cool:

 
While 10mm is my first choice for carry, the OP expressed concern about what someone said regarding the availability of 40SW. Therefore, I conclude local availability of ammo is a concern. If they think 40SW is going out the window, I can't imagine what they'd have to say about 10...if they've even heard of it.

I don't go to local gun shops, and have no concern about what's on the shelves there or at Walmart. I have to always stop for a moment to realize some folks do and that's important to them. I would STILL advocate folks find a firearm they 'like' (to me that's equivalent to 'shoot well' and 'have confidence in'), then go from there. Ammo of any caliber is available in self defense quantities from a bajillion places...at least for now.

And yes, if given the wide-open no restrictions 'uh...what gun should I carry' my No 1 recommendation for many shooters, not all, would be the 10. It's MY first choice, but I handload, don't give a crap about recoil, and can shoot ammo limited only by how fast I can load it (which is exactly why I don't care about recoil).



Recoil is an absurd myth engendered by folks who very simply think a shooter 'should' be able to respond to it because of their size or gender, etc. Folks who think it's manly to be able to suck up recoil, and who think bigger guns have more, smaller guns have less. When it comes to shooting, many folks are overcome by the notion of it being a sort of manly thing, at least in my experience. Common sense doesn't prevail; what they may have learned at the gym doesn't seem to carry over.

The hits shown above, btw, were with Remington UMC ammo, which most folks would say is loaded to 40SW levels. That's true. Dead nuts accurate ammo, shot as fast I felt comfortable, but loaded way down. May be a lesson there for all. I dunno, I am not a smart guy.
 
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CWK - That is a great-looking Beretta 96! I won an auction for a surplus one earlier this week. I hope to pick it up Saturday morning. I have heard good things about them.
 
Thanks Tall... I tend to prefer a little "one-of-a-kind" uniqueness in how my guns look... and certainly enjoy the tinkering to make them so. I love the balance of the 96 and it fits my hand perfectly so shoots very accurately for me.
 
Personally, I think it really doesn't matter what caliber you shoot. Go shoot them all and decide what you want\like to shoot. Try out all the guns you can and buy the one you feel the best with. (It doesn't matter if it's a Bersa 32 ACP or 44 mag Desert Eagle) Then go practice, practice, practice and put thousands of rounds thru it until you're proficient with it. (This includes learning how to handle recoil and return to target)

I've got a 32 ACP, 9mm, 40 cal and 45 acp (I like the looks and feel of the Desert Eagle but I was never fond of 44 mag) and I'm certain I can defend myself with all of them.
 
It's such a great thing to find a particular pistol, in a caliber that makes good sense to you, that just feels so enjoyable to shoot, feels so perfect in your hand, and allows you to shoot so great - and checks all the boxes regarding reliability, accuracy, capacity, terminal ballistics, carry-ability, etc.

I found that with the M&P40 and M&P40C. :eek:

 
First: .40 is not going away. There are already too many firearms out there chambered for it for the ammunition manufacturers to ignore. Because firearm manufacturers have, in many cases, decided that the difference between a 9MM and .40 needs only be bore size and magazines they will continue to make them - its too "easy" of a market to give up on.

With that said I think the .40 suffers from being a "jack of all trades and master of none"

In the large pocket pistols (Sig P938, Glock 43, and the like) 9MM is already pushing the edges of size, stress on the firearm, and manageable recoil. It is not likely .40 is going to find a spot there.

In the 9MMs converted to .40, at least in my experience, recoil on the .40 is noticeable to the point of being undesirable to some people.

In purpose built firearms.... well now the .40 is no longer competing with the 9MM its competing with the 10MM (and losing).

It has its niche. More power than a 9MM, more capacity and less recoil than a .45, less recoil than full blown 10MM (though light 10MM is available). The problem becomes in trying to figure out what exactly that niche is really useful for.
 
More choices are always good. I never embraced the .40 as 9MM and .45ACP seem to work for me, and I didn't see the necessity to add another caliber to reload or shoot. However, I have no problem with the .40, and think it is a fine cartridge. I'd prefer a 10MM to give me more flexibility as I could download it or max it out as needed.
 
Lohman446 said:
It has its niche. More power than a 9MM, more capacity and less recoil than a .45, less recoil than full blown 10MM (though light 10MM is available). The problem becomes in trying to figure out what exactly that niche is really useful for.
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I agree that with very small guns, 9 is a better choice of caliber. And 40 does have its niche in larger platforms. I have no problem, however, in figuring out what exactly that niche is really useful for. For me, mid-size and full-size pistols like the M&P40, M&P40C, P320 Full size and Compact make great home, RV, and car pistols. And, they are my everyday carry guns. Higher capacity and less recoil than .45, and more power than 9.

Forty offers the ideal combination of capacity, power, and controllability (with a mid-size or full-size pistol) for my needs.
 
How is the 40 losing to the 10mm? Ammo sales, selection of guns available, price of ammo, popularity?:confused:
 
I did not mean to suggest that .40 actually was losing to 10MM in regards to availability or sales (though how much of that is based on 9MM platforms that the .40 has been shoehorned into?)

I intended to point out that .40 is best served in full size purpose built firearm (rather than converted 9MMs) and once we put those caveats on it the 10MM is capable of doing everything a .40 does and more.

My argument is not against the .40 for what it is as much as the argument is that what a .40 does better than ____________ (9MM, .45, or 10MM) is done better by _________________ (9MM, .45, or 10MM). You have to fill in the blanks according to whatever aspect we are discussing.

Jack of all trades / Master of none

That obviously works for some people
 
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