Game Farm Hunts
- Thread starter warbirdlover
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There is a lot about this sport that leaves me scratching my head.....is it more ethical for the game ranch hunter to take an animal with 100% success rate or for the free range hunter who wounds his and fails to recover the animal?
I've found four dead deer on my property this year from free range hunters who wounded and failed to recover....before we get all sanctimonious about who's method is more honorable, let's make sure the job gets done no matter how they're taken.
I've found four dead deer on my property this year from free range hunters who wounded and failed to recover....before we get all sanctimonious about who's method is more honorable, let's make sure the job gets done no matter how they're taken.
603Country
New member
I used to work for a big company that had large ranches leased for hunting, and my coworkers and I took folks hunting. That wasn't our primary job, but somebody had to do the guiding, so the experienced hunters among us were picked to do it. I absolutely loved it. The deer and hogs were wild and in low fenced areas, but the quail were brought in before the season and used to stock the hunting areas. Only about 15% of the quail survived each winter, so stocking was required to have something for the guests to hunt. Except for a few folks that were good shooters, the quail didn't have much to worry about. But, one year we somehow took delivery of a huge batch of quail that weren't in the least wild. Whenever we'd stop the jeep, the quail would come running and stand around our feet, waiting for us to feed them. We just laughed, and nobody shot any of them (at least not any of my guests). The president of the company did put out a memo saying very strongly that "no quail with even one foot on the ground, even if he was on tippy toes, was to be shot, on penalty of the guide being fired".
And... we were running after Blue Quail one lovely blue sky day, and one of the guests (an obese guy that was doing his best to catch up to those quail), stepped in a hole and lost his balance and sat on a cactus (we were in South Texas). His backside looked like a porcupine. His particular host was a woman (this was back in the 80's) and she came over to me as the guest was hitting some high notes that even Roy Orbison never hit and suggested that since this was a guy, that I should pull the cactus spines out of his tail. Well...I told her that since this was the era of female equality in all things, if it was her guest, it was her job. My guest and I sat and had some coffee as she spent a good 45 minutes bent over this enormous and very white backside pulling spines. I'm all for equality, and have been since the 80's.
Did I wander off topic? Sorry.
And... we were running after Blue Quail one lovely blue sky day, and one of the guests (an obese guy that was doing his best to catch up to those quail), stepped in a hole and lost his balance and sat on a cactus (we were in South Texas). His backside looked like a porcupine. His particular host was a woman (this was back in the 80's) and she came over to me as the guest was hitting some high notes that even Roy Orbison never hit and suggested that since this was a guy, that I should pull the cactus spines out of his tail. Well...I told her that since this was the era of female equality in all things, if it was her guest, it was her job. My guest and I sat and had some coffee as she spent a good 45 minutes bent over this enormous and very white backside pulling spines. I'm all for equality, and have been since the 80's.
Did I wander off topic? Sorry.
oneounceload
Moderator
G;ad that worked for you - pen-raised quail in FL have to get kicked in the butt to get them to move. Don't use a flusher, or you will never get a shot as the dog will catch them alive and bring them back to you.
I miss the wild quail hunting I did out West - about the only drawback to living here now
Like I said, its because they haven't been flight trained. Its like the difference between the different batches of quail 603country wrote about. The ones that didn't take off and fly, weren't flight trained.
The way thats done is with a hundred yard long flight pen. Ever so often a hungry cat is placed in the pen. The quail learn to run and fly, or else...
The way thats done is with a hundred yard long flight pen. Ever so often a hungry cat is placed in the pen. The quail learn to run and fly, or else...
I agree that the ranch hunts is not real hunting. the deer just arent scared of humans like wild animals. I did hunt in milford once though and you could shoot at them deer and they literally just stand there. I would imagine that is what its like on the ranch hunts. they should try to figure a way to teach the deer to be afraid of humans on these ranches and it would be more like real hunting as some of the ranchs are pretty big.
reloader28
New member
I will never hunt that way.
But if they want to pay for it, thats their business.
Personally, I put it in the same category as blind hunting. If it was up to me, I would outlaw EVERY stand and blind in the country. I hate those things.
I would make everyone spot and stalk hunt or else you dont hunt. There would be no sitting on your butt and WAITING for a deer to maybe stumble by. That is not hunting.
But thats just my opinion. It means no more than some of you against the game farms. Its just the way certain people do things.
But if they want to pay for it, thats their business.
Personally, I put it in the same category as blind hunting. If it was up to me, I would outlaw EVERY stand and blind in the country. I hate those things.
I would make everyone spot and stalk hunt or else you dont hunt. There would be no sitting on your butt and WAITING for a deer to maybe stumble by. That is not hunting.
But thats just my opinion. It means no more than some of you against the game farms. Its just the way certain people do things.
As far as the deer and elk hunts,as I understand it,a large part of the CWD outbreak across the country came from near my home;Northern Colorado,a bit east of me.It had to do with an elk ranching operation that shipped CWD carrying elk across the country.IMO,deer,elk,etc do not belong in pens or behind tall fences as livestock.
On pen raised birds;agreed,its not much like hunting.I see one decent reason for it.The dogs.Good wild bird hunting is hard to come by.
Between holding down a job,limited access to good private land hunting,and a lot of public hunting land that is devoid of game.The point is,the bird dog.The dog's passion is bird hunting.
If the dog only hunts wild birds,it may only go on point a few times a year.
Its not so bad if ,six times a year that dog gets a few chukar,or quail,or pheasants that are farmed and planted.
No,as the shooter its not the same.It's not hunting.It does make a dog happy.
The birds are good on the table.In the end,its a more honest connection to your food than skinless,boneless chicken breasts under plastic at the grocery store.
You know,if you eat meat,killing gets done.You can hire someone at the slaughterhouse to do it,out of sight,out of mind...but,never the less,it gets done.Thats OK,to hire it done.Just buy that tube of beef burger at Safeway.
But,really,is it right to disdain someone who is part of the process ?I have no problem with someone shooting a buffalo with his Sharps.There is something honest about killing your own chicken,hog,or Angus.Kill clean,and eat it.
Boils down to:Choose what is right for you,but lets not get too judgemental.
On pen raised birds;agreed,its not much like hunting.I see one decent reason for it.The dogs.Good wild bird hunting is hard to come by.
Between holding down a job,limited access to good private land hunting,and a lot of public hunting land that is devoid of game.The point is,the bird dog.The dog's passion is bird hunting.
If the dog only hunts wild birds,it may only go on point a few times a year.
Its not so bad if ,six times a year that dog gets a few chukar,or quail,or pheasants that are farmed and planted.
No,as the shooter its not the same.It's not hunting.It does make a dog happy.
The birds are good on the table.In the end,its a more honest connection to your food than skinless,boneless chicken breasts under plastic at the grocery store.
You know,if you eat meat,killing gets done.You can hire someone at the slaughterhouse to do it,out of sight,out of mind...but,never the less,it gets done.Thats OK,to hire it done.Just buy that tube of beef burger at Safeway.
But,really,is it right to disdain someone who is part of the process ?I have no problem with someone shooting a buffalo with his Sharps.There is something honest about killing your own chicken,hog,or Angus.Kill clean,and eat it.
Boils down to:Choose what is right for you,but lets not get too judgemental.
Gunplummer
New member
Now and then some one tosses in a post that says if it is legal, then it is O.K. Somebody decided what was ethical or there would not be any game laws at all. Attitudes like that almost wiped out the buffalo. A while back (Some of you have to remember this) a game farm was shut down for selling hunts over the Internet. I mean over the Internet. You literally killed an animal over the Net. That became illegal in a hurry. Seems like there was some ethics/law melding there. The hardest part about ethical hunting is where to draw the line. What is tradition in one area is looked down on in other areas. That is fairly obvious on this forum with discussions about baiting and using trail cams.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I don't see anybody implying that the ONLY criteria is legal/illegal.
We're not talking about wiping out a species so there's no discussion of the ethics involved with wiping out a species.
We're talking about a few people killing a few animals which number in the millions nationwide and whose population is expanding overall and out of control in some localities.
As such, the ethical question is only if it is or is not ethical to kill an animal. I'm confident that the answer to that question is pretty universally agreed upon in this forum.
It's not "hunting" to jam a steel rod through a cow's skull either but it results in an instant kill and it's not unethical if the animal is used for food.
This is the same situation. I don't consider it "hunting" to shoot an animal in a high fence area that can not escape.
However, it is not unethical if it is not illegal.
We're not talking about wiping out a species so there's no discussion of the ethics involved with wiping out a species.
We're talking about a few people killing a few animals which number in the millions nationwide and whose population is expanding overall and out of control in some localities.
As such, the ethical question is only if it is or is not ethical to kill an animal. I'm confident that the answer to that question is pretty universally agreed upon in this forum.
It's not "hunting" to jam a steel rod through a cow's skull either but it results in an instant kill and it's not unethical if the animal is used for food.
This is the same situation. I don't consider it "hunting" to shoot an animal in a high fence area that can not escape.
However, it is not unethical if it is not illegal.
If it was up to me...... I would not outlaw the game farms: landowners are free to do with their property what they want to..... I just reserve the right to point out the "fish in a barrel" aspect of it..... you can not and should not attmept to legislate morality. Laws are there to prevent damage to others' rights and property. You are free to pay to shoot your own cow, if you want to..... or should be.... but!
....when your activities damage others' rights and property (game animals belong to "The People of the State of Nebraska" 'round here, and introducing CWD infected animals from wherever is damaging my right to hunt), well then, there has to be a law.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
reloader28 said:
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Where we hunt, there are small blocks of land ranging from 1-40 acres.
Thousands and thousands of people own parcels less than 15, even 10, acres that are the only places they can hunt.
How exactly does "spot and stalk" work on 10 acres of land, with 6 of it being field?
There are "personal preferences" and there are opinions like this, which are just beyond description without violating every forum rule we have.
Asinine. Absolutely ridiculous.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
reloader28 apparently pays no attention to the idea that terrain and vegetation control the methodology of one's style of hunting--no matter how often explanations have been provided.
Its hilarious reading opinions coming out of Nebraska, Wyoming, etc about how people should hunt in Southwest Texas, or Central/Western New York, etc.
I know you never see any in big parts of Nebraska, Wyoming, Eastern Colorado, etc but look up forest and brush the imagines might surprise you.
South Texas Brush Country
It would be fun to watch the 'real' hunters still hunt in that. Or take your little Brittany out for a quail hunt.
Land outside Laramie, WY
How do you guys 'stalk' the out there anyway? Disguised as a fence post, or a hay bale maybe?
I want to say that the experience of some posters is obviously limited. For example, to try and compare people who lease hunting rights on large tracts of land, to someone who shoots a pen raised animal in a relatively small enclosure is ridiculous.
It is also ridiculous to compare going around with your hat in your hand, hoping some kind rancher/farmer will let you hunt for free, to people who lease/own large tracts of land.
I'm sorry some people have never gotten to experience a first class quail plantation, with flight trained birds, or hunting deer on a South Texas sendero, etc. However, your lack of knowledge, experience and funds should not preclude you from investigating what its like, or taking the word of those who have been there.
I've hunted elk and mule deer in Colorado, deer, hogs, quail and turkeys in South Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Southern Illinois, with a rifle, shotgun, bow and handgun at various times. Different places have different methods that work when hunting, or are local tradition. One size doesn't fit all.
tl;dr Trying to compare the situation outlined in the OP, to large ranches and properly run raised bird hunting farms is ludicrous to the nth degree.
I know you never see any in big parts of Nebraska, Wyoming, Eastern Colorado, etc but look up forest and brush the imagines might surprise you.
South Texas Brush Country
It would be fun to watch the 'real' hunters still hunt in that. Or take your little Brittany out for a quail hunt.
Land outside Laramie, WY
How do you guys 'stalk' the out there anyway? Disguised as a fence post, or a hay bale maybe?
I want to say that the experience of some posters is obviously limited. For example, to try and compare people who lease hunting rights on large tracts of land, to someone who shoots a pen raised animal in a relatively small enclosure is ridiculous.
It is also ridiculous to compare going around with your hat in your hand, hoping some kind rancher/farmer will let you hunt for free, to people who lease/own large tracts of land.
I'm sorry some people have never gotten to experience a first class quail plantation, with flight trained birds, or hunting deer on a South Texas sendero, etc. However, your lack of knowledge, experience and funds should not preclude you from investigating what its like, or taking the word of those who have been there.
I've hunted elk and mule deer in Colorado, deer, hogs, quail and turkeys in South Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Southern Illinois, with a rifle, shotgun, bow and handgun at various times. Different places have different methods that work when hunting, or are local tradition. One size doesn't fit all.
tl;dr Trying to compare the situation outlined in the OP, to large ranches and properly run raised bird hunting farms is ludicrous to the nth degree.
603Country
New member
I used to do a lot of deer stalking back when I was young. I was food hunting, and the need to fill the freezer was important to me and my little family when I was in my early 20's to early 30's. These days I'm not so concerned with killing a deer as I am with just peacefully watching (from my box blinds) nature go by. Of course I'm not so peaceful when a coyote or pig shows up, but 99% of the deer get a pass. If some of you guys want to stalk deer, go for it. If you want to drop out of a tree and kill them with a knife, I think you should do that too (but call me so I can watch, and then take you to the emergency room). You do it your way and please allow me to do it my way (with coffee, a heater, a good book, and a swivel chair).
Now, to get back on topic, I'm not fond of the canned hunts. Back a ways in this chat I mentioned that I used to host hunts for my corporation, but the deer, pigs, coyotes, and dove were completely wild (I'll not mention the quail). I don't consider that to be canned hunting. In contrast, I once accepted an offer to go pig hunting, and once I got to the ranch they put us in an elevated seat in a jeep and then a cowboy on a horse ran pigs in front of us. That was a canned hunt. I was shocked. It might have been fun for the city boys, but I thought it was awful. But...is that really so much different from somebody setting up and shooting gophers or whatever from 300 yards. I'm not criticizing gopher shooting, but I am suggesting that whatever you do, when viewed from someone else's eyes, might seem terrible, terrific, boring, unethical, dangerous, sexually stimulating (yes, I saw it all while hosting), or whatever.
Now, to get back on topic, I'm not fond of the canned hunts. Back a ways in this chat I mentioned that I used to host hunts for my corporation, but the deer, pigs, coyotes, and dove were completely wild (I'll not mention the quail). I don't consider that to be canned hunting. In contrast, I once accepted an offer to go pig hunting, and once I got to the ranch they put us in an elevated seat in a jeep and then a cowboy on a horse ran pigs in front of us. That was a canned hunt. I was shocked. It might have been fun for the city boys, but I thought it was awful. But...is that really so much different from somebody setting up and shooting gophers or whatever from 300 yards. I'm not criticizing gopher shooting, but I am suggesting that whatever you do, when viewed from someone else's eyes, might seem terrible, terrific, boring, unethical, dangerous, sexually stimulating (yes, I saw it all while hosting), or whatever.
That land is not as flat as it looks, and I have done some crawling to get close* to deer before ...... there are also ways to disguise youself- do a search for "cowboarding" .... I have seen guys going after snow geese like that, and heard of successful archery hunts using a cowboard......
*and "close" is a relative term out there..... and is the reason folks prefer flat shooting cartridges ...... that and the unrelenting wind.
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