FTF transactions, millions of stolen guns, the law, and you
- Thread starter leadcounsel
- Start date
...and so I go on living with that risk. I don't expect you to do the same.
It may seem unlikely, but I am not a complete fool.
I just choose to treat my firearm transactions the same way I would lawn equipment.
If someone offers me a $1500 widgit for $300, I will remain suspicious that the seller may not be the rightful owner, and defer.
fiddletown:
That remains the law, regardless of the object you may be aquiring.
As said, I follow the law.
p
Frank Ettin
Administrator
And I prefer to follow the law and, in addition, to understand the law and avoid, or at least ameliorate, risks that are a consequence of the law.paull said:
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Nope -- there's "legal" and there's "good business practice." This really has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.paull said:
Sure it does...
Does "good business practice" include background checks on all firearm transactions via FFL's?
How about limiting ammo purchases?
Is Illinois' FOID a "good business practice"?
If not, why not? Seems that all of those things would have the benefit of reducing potential risk.
I'm really not trying to bust your balls, just can't quite get a grip on the logic of it all.
The old "liberty v. security" thing comes to mind.
p
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Nope. But good business practice, when buying a gun in a private transaction, includes both the buyer and seller properly identifying themselves to each other, providing contact information to each other, and documenting the transaction with a written bill of sale.paull said:
I might not go through that sort of rigmarole buying a card table at a garage sale. But I'd certainly be that thorough buying anything of meaningful value or something that is a popular item among thieves -- like a watch, or a piece of jewelry, or an expensive piece of art, or a computer, or a television set, or a gun.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Paull said:
I would require ID and a receipt, yes. If I'm spending more than $50, maybe $75, then yes, I want some assurances.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Indeed.peetzakilla said:
And without a receipt, if the jewelry, art, TV, etc., were to be stolen from you, you'd have a hard time collecting from your insurance company...
It's a nice, romantic idea to "return" to some mythical Good Old Days in which we all trusted each other implicitly, our word was our bond, and so forth -- but ya know what? Ever since writing was first invented, and involved a stylus and a clay tablet, sensible people have asked for receipts. Just ask any archaeologist...Paull said:
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
paull said:
Because it's a personal choice. I don't care if you do it or not. It's your life, your time, your chances, your money.
I never said, or meant to imply, that anyone besides me should do it.
Do I think that it's logical? Wise? Due diligence? Yep.
Do I care if you do it? Nope.
I look both ways when I cross the street too... but it doesn't matter to me if you do or not. As a matter of fact, when I'm driving I assume that any given pedestrian WON'T look. Doesn't change the fact that I will look.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
You think?paull said:
Sure, if you have a comprehensive, up-to-date inventory including photos or videos, along with records of serial numbers, and professional appraisals of big-ticket items like jewelry and art -- and if your guns, jewelry, or whatever, are covered by separate riders, you'll probably have given your insurance agent copies of all that before the fact. But failing that, if you want the claim settled promptly, for the full value of your property, having receipts which include the model and serial numbers is your best protection.
The insurance company isn't just gonna take your word for it as to what was stolen...
leadcounsel
Moderator
At this point, over 1/2 voted they would run away from a screaming good deal on a firearm. But what if that was the only indication that it might be stolen?
What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?
In FTF transactions I ask for ID and the usual questions to ascertain information about the seller and the item. Sometimes I get a bill of sale and sometimes I don't. It used to be more important to me than it is now.
However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.
Bottom line is that I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects. Until recently they didn't have serial numbers and background checks were not needed. You could walk into a hardware store and buy 'em up by the handful with no questions asked. I try to resist the urge to treat them differently when buying and selling, but sometimes I fall back into the mindset of a bill of sale, and sometimes I don't.
I'm also a fan of no-paper trails if possible.
What if the same seller was selling the same item at a price more in line with the actual value. Would the buyer, without the benefit of the warning of a low asking price, buy the same item without worry? Stated differently, is the selling price that big of a deal?
In FTF transactions I ask for ID and the usual questions to ascertain information about the seller and the item. Sometimes I get a bill of sale and sometimes I don't. It used to be more important to me than it is now.
However, when I go to a yard sale and see a valuable X item marked really low, I don't question it's origination. If I want it I buy it. Some of these items could theoretically have been stolen, or heck even sold by a family member that isn't the true owner.
Bottom line is that I don't think we should fall prey to treating guns with some mystical properties like we have been brainwashed to do. Guns are purely objects. Until recently they didn't have serial numbers and background checks were not needed. You could walk into a hardware store and buy 'em up by the handful with no questions asked. I try to resist the urge to treat them differently when buying and selling, but sometimes I fall back into the mindset of a bill of sale, and sometimes I don't.
I'm also a fan of no-paper trails if possible.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
leadcounsel said:
I'm not sure why the whole yard/garage sale thing keeps popping up. The fact that an item is at a very public and at least mildly advertised event, not to mention at a persons house, pretty much takes care of an awful lot of questions in my mind. It really has no relevance to the OP, at least for me.
leadcounsel said:
For me, it has no bearing on price, except that I'm willing to take the chance on small ticket items.
If I'm buying a gun then I'm getting ID and a receipt. Period, end of story. If you refuse or seem suspect in any way, I'm gone. Price has no bearing in a firearms purchase, high or low dollar.
Not sure how you rectify these two statements, PK...
It is very apparent that we will not conduct any FTF firearm transactions between ourselves.
By the way, I'm ALWAYS willing to have the buyer swing by the house if they wish.
It just seems to work out that we end up meeting somewhere in town.
I have had folks come by my office to see or show a gun.
Always a pleasure picking minds here.
p
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Vanya...
Exactly!
I do not believe that my insurance company is going to believe my hand-written receipt any more than my word.
When I was 20 y/o, I had little of value and cared little if it was covered.
I'm pushing 50 now and have aquired many things. I also care for my things better than I did as a kid, and make sure that I have adequate coverage.
p
Exactly!
I do not believe that my insurance company is going to believe my hand-written receipt any more than my word.
When I was 20 y/o, I had little of value and cared little if it was covered.
I'm pushing 50 now and have aquired many things. I also care for my things better than I did as a kid, and make sure that I have adequate coverage.
p
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Paull said:
I've never bought a gun at a garage sale, that how.
Actually, I've never bought a gun from anyone except a dealer. If I did, it would include ID and a receipt.
I will confess that, under the right circumstances, I might buy a gun at a garage sale and not insist on a receipt or ID. You have to realize where I live though. This is "the boonies". Any garage sale is likely to be a little old couple who have lived in that house for 50 years and spend their summers sitting in the front yard doing a nearly endless sale day after day after day... they're not hard to find if you ever need them again.
In that case, maybe I might buy a shotgun or an old rifle from the old guy. He's not likely to be the one offering the smoking deal on a brand new hand gun that he's just GOT to get rid of to pay bills.
However, the MUCH more typical scenario just happened to me this last summer..... a rather beat up minivan with no exhaust comes into my parking lot. A rather beat up old lady, probably with too much exhaust, wants to sell me a gun because "we really need the money". She pulls out this $175 "Wal*Mart Special" pump 12ga in a $19.95 plastic case and tells me that it's a $500 gun and a $150 case and it's only been shot once.... and she really doesn't want to but she'll let it go for $300 because they need to pay the car insurance. Riiiiiiight. I say "No thanks.", suddenly, it's only $250, then $200, still I say no. $175? No.
If that was a $4000 O/U shotgun and she wanted $200 for it I wouldn't have touched it without ID and a receipt, not to mention a check on the serial from my sheriff's deputy buddy. No way, no how.
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It seems that i hold the minority opinion on this issue.
^^^ Would you guys look at a garage sale much differently than a gun show? It's a publicly announced sale, with deputies at the door, but i am not familiar with any sort of validation process that sellers are required to undergo to participate.
I've bought one firearm without going through an FFL; it was a reasonably priced rifle at a gun show, from an individual's collection. Dude had a table full & seemed to be accepted as a "regular" by the nearby sellers. Dude also copied my ID for his file & asked if i was prohibited from buying firearms, IIRC. I'm comfortable with that situation. I bought some ammo & magazines as well; should i have gotten a bill of sale on the mags as "gun parts"?
Honestly, if it turned out that rifle were stolen, i would try to get it returned to the rightful owner, and would provide all the information i have on the person who sold it to me (date from visa receipt for same day ammo purchase, physical description, and booth location).
^^^ Would you guys look at a garage sale much differently than a gun show? It's a publicly announced sale, with deputies at the door, but i am not familiar with any sort of validation process that sellers are required to undergo to participate.
I've bought one firearm without going through an FFL; it was a reasonably priced rifle at a gun show, from an individual's collection. Dude had a table full & seemed to be accepted as a "regular" by the nearby sellers. Dude also copied my ID for his file & asked if i was prohibited from buying firearms, IIRC. I'm comfortable with that situation. I bought some ammo & magazines as well; should i have gotten a bill of sale on the mags as "gun parts"?
Honestly, if it turned out that rifle were stolen, i would try to get it returned to the rightful owner, and would provide all the information i have on the person who sold it to me (date from visa receipt for same day ammo purchase, physical description, and booth location).
Frank Ettin
Administrator
What would that have to do with anything? I've no doubt that stolen or counterfeit (in the case of, for example, an expensive watch or painting) have been sold through newspaper or Internet advertisements.paull said:
But when buying from an individual, a stranger, different types of objects may well warrant different types of due diligence. Guns, for example, are popular targets for thieves, are sometimes used in crimes and, after being used for criminal purposes, are sometimes sold as a means of disposing of them. Jewelry may be phony, and collectibles (including collectible guns) are sometimes faked. Expensive watches may be counterfeit or stolen. These are all simply objects, but the uncertainties are different.leadcounsel said: