For those of you who use a red dot on your carry pistol,,,
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There are all kinds of red dots with grip-activated switches. My concern is a dead battery. Sure as the devil, the battery will be dead just when you need it most. If you train expecting that red dot to be there, then in a real situation it isn't there, it will take you some time to realize your red dot crapped out on you (meanwhile you're getting perforated) and transition to your iron sights (if you even know how to use them because you trained for your red dot).
So there’s a difference between lasers and red dot optics. The OP is talking about the latter. I don’t know if any red dot optics activated by grip, lasers are a different story.
Can batteries fail? Yes. Does that mean I ride my horse to work rather than drive my car? No. At some point we have to have some degree of confidence in technologies that have been in existence for years in the case of pistol red dots or decades in the case of red dots in general. The optics in question have been used in both military and law enforcement applications. If you want to watch some tough testing of red dots there is Sage Dynamics on YouTube that has testing going tens of thousands of rounds and multiple shoulder height drops onto asphalt. There is always the fear that technology can fail. I’m old enough that I remember the “6 for sure is better than 7 maybe” mantra that revolver shooters used to have when it came to the 1911. Willfully giving up a technological advantage because of what might happen, despite evidence to the contrary, isn’t the route I choose.
As for the argument that you will forget how to use irons if you use a red dot optic, that’s just false. I spent three days last week with 8 hr a day using red dots on pistols. Then a few days later I took out a 1911 with irons. I wasn’t dumbfounded. If I have learned anything in using red dots on pistols it’s that they are less tolerant of poor technique than irons can be. The skills required to be good with red dots translate to irons just fine.
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I tried the tatci-dot thing on my FNX45T for a few months. Bottom line is a NO for me. Just could not acclimate to "dot hunting" for aiming. Maybe others have comfortable success with a dot, but in NO way would I want to be hunting for the dot in a adrenaline filled, life threatening self defense situation under duress.
You don’t focus on the dot, that’s a misunderstanding a lot of people have. You superimpose the dot on the target and focus on the target, just like with a rifle. Following the dot around the window can really lead you astray.
A number of people do have issues “finding the dot” at first, there is a learning curve there. The reality is if your presentation of the pistol is good, you generally won’t need to hunt for the dot. It will be there in front of your eyes when the pistol comes up. This can take a lot of repetitions and requires your stance and grip to be well practiced. I had done a lot of reflexive or point shooting before I tried one so it wasn’t that bad for me. In the courses I mentioned above everyone by the end of a day was finding the dot. Some might make an argument that up close or in stress you won’t be able to do that. In that case reflexive shooting is as always your friend, dot or irons.
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A number of people do have issues “finding the dot” at first, there is a learning curve there. The reality is if your presentation of the pistol is good, you generally won’t need to hunt for the dot. It will be there in front of your eyes when the pistol comes up. This can take a lot of repetitions and requires your stance and grip to be well practiced. I had done a lot of reflexive or point shooting before I tried one so it wasn’t that bad for me. In the courses I mentioned above everyone by the end of a day was finding the dot. Some might make an argument that up close or in stress you won’t be able to do that. In that case reflexive shooting is as always your friend, dot or irons.
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HighValleyRanch
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^^^^^^^
For or against a red dot and why?
I can only speak to trying to convert to an aimpoint on my .22 bulleye pistol, and what I found was that it enhanced my wobble and cause me to snatch the trigger.
Being nervous before a big match, it showed up like a bouncing ball that I could not control and I would try and get the shot off when the dot danced by the bull.
I cannot imagine how it might shake in an real life adrenaline situation!
Maybe you'll be able to keep calmer than me!
For or against a red dot and why?
I can only speak to trying to convert to an aimpoint on my .22 bulleye pistol, and what I found was that it enhanced my wobble and cause me to snatch the trigger.
Being nervous before a big match, it showed up like a bouncing ball that I could not control and I would try and get the shot off when the dot danced by the bull.
I cannot imagine how it might shake in an real life adrenaline situation!
Maybe you'll be able to keep calmer than me!
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I would never put a red dot (or a laser) on any defensive handgun simply because of the fear of a dead battery issue. My life isn't something I want to trust to Duracell.
I actually looked it up today, and Aimpoint’s first red dot was in 1975. Their first military contract was in 1997. We’re talking decades, not just years.
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HisSoldier
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Note that I got the laser vs red dot thing. I had a laser on my carry pistol and happened to be out in the mountains in a clearcut area, bright sunlight, yup, couldn't find the dot no matter how hard or long I looked. Went to a slightly darker area, noticed that the DAO trigger precluded actually holding the dot anywhere's near stationary. I sold it soon after.
stinkeypete
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I've proven to myself (and my pals) that I can out-shoot about 50% of the guys at bullseye pistol league (Wednesday nights in the winter) with my battery dead and no dot at all... just by practice, consistent grip, and centering the tube of the ultradot around the bullseye target in .22 and then for fun shot not too bad the same way with my 1911. The dot does buy me some points.
Following the same experiment I once had the dot removed for an occasional deep cleaning and gave a shot at a regulation target with nothing but the front iron sight and still was able to score in the 60's at 50 feet with my .22 target pistol (which is a TT Olympia, Norico clone).
Dots improve my score and I would love to have one on my field pistol as what I shoot at tends to be shotgun hulls I find in the grass at rather long distances. But for now, the technology is still too expensive and clunky for the stuff I would like it for other than range use and carrying extra batteries in my range box (I learned!) is no big deal.
Following the same experiment I once had the dot removed for an occasional deep cleaning and gave a shot at a regulation target with nothing but the front iron sight and still was able to score in the 60's at 50 feet with my .22 target pistol (which is a TT Olympia, Norico clone).
Dots improve my score and I would love to have one on my field pistol as what I shoot at tends to be shotgun hulls I find in the grass at rather long distances. But for now, the technology is still too expensive and clunky for the stuff I would like it for other than range use and carrying extra batteries in my range box (I learned!) is no big deal.
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The military is not the same as the average Joe Blow. They know when they are going into battle and unless they are idiots put in a fresh battery every time and I am dead sure they put in fresh batteries on a VERY regular schedule. The average Joe Blow sticks his gun in its holster and it stays there for looong lengths of time, maybe even years before being used.
Hunting guns are a completely different story. Your life is not going to depend on it ... unless you're an idiot using one for a grizzly gun.
Hunting guns are a completely different story. Your life is not going to depend on it ... unless you're an idiot using one for a grizzly gun.
The Trijicon RMR has a battery life of 4+ YEARS on the middle setting (4 of 8). I run my dot a little brighter then that (6 of 8). Ive never had a dead battery. I change batteries once a year and could prob go every 2 years, but batteries are cheap and im counting on the gun to save my or someone else's life. A little maintenance is a small price to pay.
So, on my Birthday i have a battery swap session. All my longguns and handguns with dots on em get replaced.
In addition, most people that run red dots have some type of iron sight back up. My red dot equipped pistols have suppressor height sights that can be seen thru the window of the red dot. So, even if the dot somehow fails, i just shoot with the irons.
Heck, if the dot fails at conversational distances (less then 5 yards) just see his chest thru the window and go... the dot only allows faster PRECISION work. You should have built the muscle memory (god, i hate that phrase, but its widely understood) to achieve good hits at 3yards WITHOUT needing the dot as reference. In fact, you should train with the dot off and “shoot thru the tube” at least enough to be comfortable with the concept.
If changing a battery once a year is too strenuous, then dont put a dot on. If $600 is too expensive, then dont put a dot on. If you dont want to spend the cash to have your slide milled...well, you get the point.
Dots are not for everyone. Those of us that use a gun seriously and are willing to put in the time to understand it strengths and weaknesses, find them useful. Head shots at 20-25 are all the sudden not that hard to make. COM hits at 100 plus are not difficult. Up close they only slow you down if you let them. Like i said above, chest in window...press the trigger. Oh CRAP...partial head at 7...hold the dot and press.
Just like the Rifle, better sighting systems are becoming standard. The ol’ front sight blade in the rear sight notch that has been around for 300years(?), is no longer the cutting edge.
But, maybe some folks are still happy with dial-up modems
So, on my Birthday i have a battery swap session. All my longguns and handguns with dots on em get replaced.
In addition, most people that run red dots have some type of iron sight back up. My red dot equipped pistols have suppressor height sights that can be seen thru the window of the red dot. So, even if the dot somehow fails, i just shoot with the irons.
Heck, if the dot fails at conversational distances (less then 5 yards) just see his chest thru the window and go... the dot only allows faster PRECISION work. You should have built the muscle memory (god, i hate that phrase, but its widely understood) to achieve good hits at 3yards WITHOUT needing the dot as reference. In fact, you should train with the dot off and “shoot thru the tube” at least enough to be comfortable with the concept.
If changing a battery once a year is too strenuous, then dont put a dot on. If $600 is too expensive, then dont put a dot on. If you dont want to spend the cash to have your slide milled...well, you get the point.
Dots are not for everyone. Those of us that use a gun seriously and are willing to put in the time to understand it strengths and weaknesses, find them useful. Head shots at 20-25 are all the sudden not that hard to make. COM hits at 100 plus are not difficult. Up close they only slow you down if you let them. Like i said above, chest in window...press the trigger. Oh CRAP...partial head at 7...hold the dot and press.
Just like the Rifle, better sighting systems are becoming standard. The ol’ front sight blade in the rear sight notch that has been around for 300years(?), is no longer the cutting edge.
But, maybe some folks are still happy with dial-up modems
I have a red dot on my Ruger MKIII competition. But it is not meant for self-defense. I agree that accuracy can be outstanding. I can drill pop cans with it consistently all day long @ 100 yards.
Long-shot capability just makes no sense to me at all for a defensive gun. If you shoot someone more than about 5 yards away you are most likely on your way to prison for assault with a deadly weapon ... or murder ... because there was no IMMINENT threat to your life ... imminent meaning you could be dead in about one second unless you shoot. So, unless the bad guy is actually shooting at you, AND YOU CAN PROVE IT, you are most likely legally dead meat.
Long-shot capability just makes no sense to me at all for a defensive gun. If you shoot someone more than about 5 yards away you are most likely on your way to prison for assault with a deadly weapon ... or murder ... because there was no IMMINENT threat to your life ... imminent meaning you could be dead in about one second unless you shoot. So, unless the bad guy is actually shooting at you, AND YOU CAN PROVE IT, you are most likely legally dead meat.
Really? 5 yd is 15 feet. That’s less than the distance across many rooms. Saying you’re legally screwed if you shoot passed 15 feet seems a bit extreme to me, but obviously your state laws will apply. I’m well aware of the standard rule of 3s when it comes to officer involved shootings, but that doesn’t mean all shootings happen at that distance.
I’m certainly willing to agree that justifying a personal defense shooting at 100 yd is going to be an uphill battle, but there’s a lot of ground (literally) between 5 yd and 100 yd.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/one-year-later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/
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I’m certainly willing to agree that justifying a personal defense shooting at 100 yd is going to be an uphill battle, but there’s a lot of ground (literally) between 5 yd and 100 yd.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/one-year-later-vic-stacy-and-the-peach-house-shootout/
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IMMINENT threat of your own life or someone else's is petty much the requisite for a self-defense plea almost everywhere in the country. And if you don't have an organization like USCCA in your corner you're pretty much screwed even then. Don't like reality? Then get the laws changed, but lots of luck with that. Strut your stuff and beat your chest ... and go to prison. Fine with me.
If you see a police officer under fire ... or some other innocent person (and can later prove that innoceent person's life was in dager) you stand a good chance of coming out OK with a long shot ... but those are about the only such scenarios.
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