For people who think shooting perp w/45 auto = game over

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“Again… if you can shoot someone with 1.25 caliber round and send it clean through his head – you expect to kill him….. think it goes to show that there is no such thing as a “one shot stop”.

Then how does one explain all the folks that have been stopped with one shot…an early example being the gunfight between Davis Tutt and Wild Bill Hickok. At a distance of 75 yards (225 feet) both men fired once, Davis Tutt was stopped (and died) at the scene, shot thru the heart. Hickoks handgun on that day was a 36 cal 1851 Navy Colt.
 
Seaman, he obviously means there's no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop, and that Marshall and Sanow's "96% stop" is based on dubious scientific method.
 
Don’t know anything about Marshall and Sanow’s “96% stop.”

Forgive my ignorance (and confusion), but wouldn’t a shot thru the heart qualify as a “guaranteed one shot stop.”

Many years ago, my favorite President, the scholar /soldier /explorer /Nobel Laureate Theodore Roosevelt said that to stop an enemy you had to shoot them in the brain, the heart, or the spine, and call me old fashioned but I tend to agree.
 
Just goes to show that averages are just that. You may end up at one end or the other of the bell curve.

Occasionally, people die from one round of .22LR.
Occasionally, people survive multiple rounds of .45 acp.

Each is the exception to the rule.

If you want to bet on the long shot, go for it. Someone wins the lottery ever week. They make the headlines.

But the reality is, millions of others don't. Most of us examine the data, and bet on the more likely outcome.
 
Seaman, people have survived heart punctures. Odds don't favor it, but it happens.

Had a friend who had back to back hog hunts get "interesting" when he went for heart shots. He was using a Ruger Security Six 6" .357. First hog, on butchering discovered the first round hit the heart. Hog charged my friend, who dropped it with the second shot, to the head.

Second hog, on butchering discovered the first round severed the aorta. Hog charged my friend, who this time turned and ran to his nearby car. Hog charged and tusk raked the car, denting the driver's door. My friend grabbed a Mini14 from the back seat, and shot the hog in the head through the driver's window.

So, for hogs anyway, heart and aorta shots aren't guaranteed to produce a now, now, now stop.

So, no, there are no guarantees. High probabilities, sure, guarantees, not so much.

Keep shooting until the threat ceases.
 
don't know about hogs, but a human can continue to attack for 15 seconds after their heart's been completely obliterated by a bullet according to Dr. Fackler.

more than enough time to fire off a few shots.
 
Those of us who've had the privilege of knowing Detective Jared Reston know he's a role model cop. If you have 18 minutes to spare, you can learn more from Jared about this shooting in the interview he granted the ProArms Podcast, http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/03/14/047-ed-brown-and-jared-reston/. Jared's discussion of the incident appears at 33:00 into the podcast.

As you'll hear host Steve Denney (a former SWAT officer himself) explain, Jared is a helluva good shot, too. It has been a pleasure to shoot with him.

He has since been in another fatal OIS, also eminently justified and cleared by the prosecutor's office as such.

Instructors here are free to download the podcast and use it for training.
 
In watching a demonstration of a mechanical device, six 6" plates, built by two brothers, and though the two brothers were not firearms instructors, they were making statements to these young officers, off the cuff.

My function was as a monitor, on the two Engineers. When they started berating the Officers who hit 2" below the plate, big bullet strike on the flat support beam. I jumped in, and told the class that the equipment was great, but the advice was flawed,

Bringing a big young man to the front of the class, I had him stand against the equipment. Measured the "Miss" then showed the class 2" below the chin!

Two inch low of a hit with a 9mm, 147g Hollow Point, at 1000fps! Right through the throat, and spine? A miss!!

Ended with some humor, the plates were good gear, they reset on their own.

Head shots are good most of the time, a center hit in the throat, is good all of the time, even if not aimed for.
 
orionengnr says it all

That is the end point.

Our bodies will take anything that our minds are willing to receive.

If nothing essential to the immediate function of our body is disabled,
If we have the will. we will continue to fight until our body is DONE and unable to continue.

Unless we are struck with a force that to the "individual" is so extreme that they "feel" they can no longer put up a fight.

Will of survival.

Animals dont know what hit them, they just know things are wrong, so they go nuts and attack or retreat until their body says "NO, you are DONE"

Humans say "OMG< I'm shot!!!!!!! I cant go on" an then we collapse" either that or we say.... (excuse me) "F this.... I'm pumped and nothing will stop me but death"

That is why I now understand that more damage means more stopping power. In the generally speaking bell curve like orionengnr originally said
 
...​

"TAMPING IRON: a crowbar-like tool used to compact an explosive charge into the bottom of a bore hole. 3 feet 7 inches in length; 1-1/4 inches in diameter at one end tapering over a distance of about 1 foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other end; and weighing 13-1/2 pounds."

Short of military artillery (like that Navy magnetic rail gun), I don't think there is a gun that fires projectiles like these, so you have to dig a hole, plant explosive charges in it, then get the bad guy to bend over the hole and then detonate.

I think you'd have to do it by saying something like "Whoa - look at this, someone dropped their bling-bling in this here hole" And then when the bad guy looks in the hole.... BLAM !
 
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That HP would not have done more damage. In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time.
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markj, I think you are just making up stuff now.

CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.
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This is wrong as well.
 
One of the not-so-much talked about aspects of this story is where and how many times Joel Abner was shot. Not counting the three to the head area... he seemed to take a lot of rounds and not go down.
 
At least two shots were said to have hit Abner about an inch apart, in the middle of his back.

I haven't seen any reference to Abner's size, but based on the quarter mile sprint that he barely lost to a physical fitness buff, I would guess Abner was in good shape.
 
If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...
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The thing is that it usually takes more than the 300 or 400 pounds that a bullet creates. Chuck Lidell punches guys in the face with between 1,200 and 1,400 pounds of force and they stay up.

A lucky hit in the right spot can take a man down with very little energy. It is like a lucky shot shot from a gun, don't count on it.
 
I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.

With regards however to the comment about whether or not how close the muzzle is to the person (or animal) about to be shot, I think you may be onto something. It doesn't have anything to do with velocity but rather with the muzzle blast of the weapon. In other words, if you placed the muzzle of the firearm against the body of what you are shooting, it would probably do more damage. It's an idea anyway and probably doesn't have much practical application.
 
BlueTrain said:
I've never understood why people get so upset with the published results of Marshall & Sanow. It is true that what they talk about is limited but nowhere have I read that they guaranteed anything. If what they publish is false, then all handgun rounds are pretty much the same. There is such a thing as a one shot stop, only it isn't guaranteed.
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Actually, I would say that's true, that "all" handgun rounds are the same.

By all, I mean not literally "all", but any of the major calibers from, roughly, high end 38spl, 9mm energies to 10mm, 357mag energies.

Given proper bullet selection and proper shot placement, I believe the long term averages would be nearly identical as to the effect and time to effect.

Handguns are very weak things, really. Even the most powerful cartridges typically carried will have muzzle energies equivalent to what a fairly low end rifle bullet has at hundreds of yards distance.

This is why I consider a handgun to be a last ditch weapon, carried because it is the only reasonable choice. When I have a choice, at home for example, I would reach for the 12ga, not ANY handgun.
 
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