For people who think shooting perp w/45 auto = game over
- Thread starter C0untZer0
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for people who think you cannot fall 22,000 feet out of a WWII bomber and survive without a parachute
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071076/posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lJTZUOKLfw
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071076/posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lJTZUOKLfw
cosmicdingo
New member
Recall another similar case in which a State Trooper got shot in the forehead w/.45hardball, shot back and won.Can't remember too many facts, saw it in a gunrag.
First thing is I'm glad that the good guy lived and the bad guy died.
Second is that the bad guy was using FMJ. There's a reason why we carry hollow points in our sidearms.
Third, none of the shots were in the vitals. The chin shot exited before it could do great damage. Every other shot hit body armor or non vital areas of the body.
This guys heart and will to live are to be commended.
As far as what this me ams about 45acp...
It means nothing. With proper ammunition and shot placement this encounter could have ended badly for the good guys.
Luckily the nimrod bad guy was using FMJ and wasn't as well trained as the LEO.
Second is that the bad guy was using FMJ. There's a reason why we carry hollow points in our sidearms.
Third, none of the shots were in the vitals. The chin shot exited before it could do great damage. Every other shot hit body armor or non vital areas of the body.
This guys heart and will to live are to be commended.
As far as what this me ams about 45acp...
It means nothing. With proper ammunition and shot placement this encounter could have ended badly for the good guys.
Luckily the nimrod bad guy was using FMJ and wasn't as well trained as the LEO.
Several valuable lessons here:
1. The will to live must dominate.
2. The need to stay in the fight is essential and involves conquering all pain.
3. Never assume the threat is neutralized until you can absolutely confirm it.
4. Expect the unexpected.
5. It is better to be lucky than good.
6. Be thankful that there are men that can withstand that kind of fight, live to tell the tale, and are back on the job. Words can never say enough to thank a man like this for eliminating a sub human who would kill over a pair of stolen jeans. What would he be capable of if he lived?
The world is degenerating. In the words of a very close friend of mine that is a homicide detective..."Never leave home without your gun. It's dangerous out there."
1. The will to live must dominate.
2. The need to stay in the fight is essential and involves conquering all pain.
3. Never assume the threat is neutralized until you can absolutely confirm it.
4. Expect the unexpected.
5. It is better to be lucky than good.
6. Be thankful that there are men that can withstand that kind of fight, live to tell the tale, and are back on the job. Words can never say enough to thank a man like this for eliminating a sub human who would kill over a pair of stolen jeans. What would he be capable of if he lived?
The world is degenerating. In the words of a very close friend of mine that is a homicide detective..."Never leave home without your gun. It's dangerous out there."
FMJ vs HP
I recently posted a thread asking if .38 special +P FMJ with a bit of a flat nose, would be an acceptable self defense round. In that thread I realized that .38 specials or 9mm's or .40's or whatever would be best for self defense as a hollow point of some sort. Otherwise they will just zip right through the bad guy giving him more of a scare, than actually doing enough serious damage to *shock* and *STOP* the threat. I also said that .45's would probably not need to be hollow points and that FMJ .45's would be fine considering they make a big enough hole on their own.
After watching this video, I realize that if that officer had been shot with HP .45's instead of FMJ's his injuries may have been alot worse, and that just might have been enough to change the outcome of the fight.
Thats just something to think about
I recently posted a thread asking if .38 special +P FMJ with a bit of a flat nose, would be an acceptable self defense round. In that thread I realized that .38 specials or 9mm's or .40's or whatever would be best for self defense as a hollow point of some sort. Otherwise they will just zip right through the bad guy giving him more of a scare, than actually doing enough serious damage to *shock* and *STOP* the threat. I also said that .45's would probably not need to be hollow points and that FMJ .45's would be fine considering they make a big enough hole on their own.
After watching this video, I realize that if that officer had been shot with HP .45's instead of FMJ's his injuries may have been alot worse, and that just might have been enough to change the outcome of the fight.
Thats just something to think about
No way! And I am one of the more extreme cases of people who lack sympathy for bad guys. The taser is a good buffer between close hand to hand combat or spacial deadly force with a firearm. Had his taser deployed, and worse case scenario, still not have totally incapacitated the BG the officer might have been in a better position to see the BG's weapon. If you want to argue on the dependability of tasers, fine lets go to that place. But to make it a right for a police officer to blow away everyone who runs from him, no way! That is over the top.
Thank god this officer wore his body armor, and kept his fire inside to fight with everything he had. His philosophy at the end is sound. Any other officers on this forum should write the words he said at the end and keep it in your wallet or hang it on your wall.
"I am not going to sit there and let luck determine my fate....It's your life and your business and you need to take care of your own business."
That is another subject I am curious about. I assume that the muzzle of the .45 was very close to the officers chin. Would this be a factor in the damage it caused? In other words would the wound have been more devastating if the round would have been fired from 12 feet away? Or should we have expected the opposite?
Muzzle velocity is highest right when the bullet leaves the barrel - it starts to deccelerate from that point on.
having said that... who knows what that bullet would have done given the same angle but lower velocity.
who id to say that a hollow point would have done more damage?
That bullet path just happened to not hit anything vital.
That officer said that he wasn't going to let luck determine the outcome etc etc... but he totally lucked out! If someone gets shot in the chin with a .45 - it could just as easily have passed through a major blood vessel as not, it came out his neck from his chin - how close must it have passed to a cartid artery? It could have gone straight back and his spine.
I think it was important for him to fight to survive - to fight back instead of laying doen, because probably one of those "pot shots" would have caught him in the head. You can play possum when someone's shooting at you - even if they are walking away while doing it.
So it's good that he said he wasn't going to leave it up to luck, but considering he took one on the chin right off the bat - he was lucky it didn't kill him right then and there.
having said that... who knows what that bullet would have done given the same angle but lower velocity.
who id to say that a hollow point would have done more damage?
That bullet path just happened to not hit anything vital.
That officer said that he wasn't going to let luck determine the outcome etc etc... but he totally lucked out! If someone gets shot in the chin with a .45 - it could just as easily have passed through a major blood vessel as not, it came out his neck from his chin - how close must it have passed to a cartid artery? It could have gone straight back and his spine.
I think it was important for him to fight to survive - to fight back instead of laying doen, because probably one of those "pot shots" would have caught him in the head. You can play possum when someone's shooting at you - even if they are walking away while doing it.
So it's good that he said he wasn't going to leave it up to luck, but considering he took one on the chin right off the bat - he was lucky it didn't kill him right then and there.
Here is the incident in greater detail as written by Massad Ayoob in American Handgunner.
I knew the story sounded familiar.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_34/ai_n56222291/?tag=content;col1
I knew the story sounded familiar.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_34/ai_n56222291/?tag=content;col1
45 HPs would have likely flattened and done less damage. As it was the police officer took a terrific 230 gr fmj hit to the jaw that would have ended the fight right there (in most cases).
The perp's problem was not the 230 gr 45 ACP ammo, it did what it was supposed to do.
The perp's problem was that he picked a fight with Robocop.
My congratulations to the officer, he
1. thru sheer determination refused to go down, and
2. kept his cool (kept putting rounds on target) despite debilitating injury and stunning pain.
Good to hear the officer survived against heavy odds (the perp was well armed and a tough too), job well done.
The perp's problem was not the 230 gr 45 ACP ammo, it did what it was supposed to do.
The perp's problem was that he picked a fight with Robocop.
My congratulations to the officer, he
1. thru sheer determination refused to go down, and
2. kept his cool (kept putting rounds on target) despite debilitating injury and stunning pain.
Good to hear the officer survived against heavy odds (the perp was well armed and a tough too), job well done.
I thought about the possibility that a hollow point would not have punched through so cleanly and would have delivered more energy to the jaw.
If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...
If you take a blow to the jaw of sufficient strength the kinetic shock will transfer to your brain rendering you unconscious. Maybe if the perp had been using HPs the police officer would have lost consciousness...
Count, that is an interesting point.
I have not been shot in the jaw by 45 HP and fmj to compare results. Now in the good officer’s case the jaw was broken and the teeth went horizontal, meaning he had to be stunned and in pain too…would a hollow point impact harder?
My gut feeling is that HP bullet flattening /spreading would somewhat dissipate the impact, more of a splat than a concentrated strike, meaning less shock. Bear in mind also that fmj bullets can also flatten/distort to a certain degree depending on what they strike.
Years ago when researching the Miami shootout, it surprised me that the two perps suffered 4 hits to the skull from 38 spl +P HP ammo that flattened, fell off, and did not stop them.
All I can tell you is that police officer sure passed the tough man test.
I have not been shot in the jaw by 45 HP and fmj to compare results. Now in the good officer’s case the jaw was broken and the teeth went horizontal, meaning he had to be stunned and in pain too…would a hollow point impact harder?
My gut feeling is that HP bullet flattening /spreading would somewhat dissipate the impact, more of a splat than a concentrated strike, meaning less shock. Bear in mind also that fmj bullets can also flatten/distort to a certain degree depending on what they strike.
Years ago when researching the Miami shootout, it surprised me that the two perps suffered 4 hits to the skull from 38 spl +P HP ammo that flattened, fell off, and did not stop them.
All I can tell you is that police officer sure passed the tough man test.
That HP would not have done more damage. In actual flesh and bone tests the HPs failed to penetrate the rib cages FMJ did every time.
Guys jaww was broke, when I boxed I saw a few guys lay it on and break a jaw, some droped many fought on. Ali had his jaw broke by norton in an early round ali went on to win that fight.
CNS will drop a person, anywhere else is a crap shoot. No matter tha caliber, no matter the round HP or fmj.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
markj said:
That's the first time I've EVER heard anything like that...
Who did these tests and with what bullets and cartridges?
I test all my carry ammo, and penetration is at the top of my list. I’ve done 2x4s, metal, pork ribs, telephone books, etc. Tho I haven’t tested a lot of specialty HP ammo, I have found that fmj goes deeper and smashes thru, HP not so much.
But don’t believe me, read Officer Lang’s story, in a gunfight he needed all 14 rounds of 45 ACP 185 gr +P jacketed HPs in his Glock 21 to stop one slightly built perp.
Officer lang was “not pleased with his bullets’ performance…He feels…his..bullets did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal.” ---American Handgunner, May-June, 2011, p. 95
It is an important tactical decision as to what ammo you carry, for me its fmj.
But don’t believe me, read Officer Lang’s story, in a gunfight he needed all 14 rounds of 45 ACP 185 gr +P jacketed HPs in his Glock 21 to stop one slightly built perp.
Officer lang was “not pleased with his bullets’ performance…He feels…his..bullets did not penetrate as much as might have been optimal.” ---American Handgunner, May-June, 2011, p. 95
It is an important tactical decision as to what ammo you carry, for me its fmj.
Deaf Smith
New member
There is no such thing as a one shot stop round.
People have been shot in the head with CROWBARS and were still lucid.
I know of a few incidents where shotguns with buckshot didn't drop them.
Sure, aim strait and use as powerful a round/handgun as you can control, but don't think for a minute it's some super weapon.
Deaf
People have been shot in the head with CROWBARS and were still lucid.
I know of a few incidents where shotguns with buckshot didn't drop them.
Sure, aim strait and use as powerful a round/handgun as you can control, but don't think for a minute it's some super weapon.
Deaf
There are a few cases to consider - there is the case of Ron Hunt. He fell from a ladder and had an 18" auger go into his eye and through his skull. It was a 1.5" diameter auger - so in equivalent hand gun caliber it was three times the width of a .500 S&W Magnum, and more than adequate penetration, pretty good shot placement too - I mean if you can shoot someone in the eye with 1.50 cal round with 18" guaranteed penetration, you sort of expect to kill him. But Ron not only lived but was conscious throughout the ordeal:
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/drillbit.asp
There is also the case of Phineas Gage. Phineas was injured in an accident preparing to lay rail for a railroad. An accidental explosion of a charge he had set blew his tamping iron through his head. The tamping iron was 3 feet 7 inches long and weighed 13 1/2 pounds. It was 1 1/4 inches in diameter at one end and tapered over a distance of about 1-foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other. The tamping iron went in point first under his left cheek bone and completely out through the top of his head, landing about 25 to 30 yards behind him. Phineas was knocked over but may not have lost consciousness even though most of the front part of the left side of his brain was destroyed
Again… if you can shoot someone with 1.25 caliber round and send it clean through his head – you expect to kill him.
According to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow the 1.50 caliber auger round which reliably penetrates bone and flesh up to 18” has 0% street success. The 1.25 caliber tamping iron round which likewise completely penetrates bone also has a 0% street success rate. Me personally, if I had a choice between shooting someone with a .40 caliber bullet or a 1.25 caliber tamping iron – I’d choose the tamping iron. But that’s just me.
I just think it goes to show that there is no such thing as a “one shot stop”. It was an attempt to measure bullet effectiveness, it wasn’t a bad idea, but those two guys staked their livelihood on it – it became “their thing”. They were making money off the books, speaking etc.. and because of that – even when problems came to light about their methodology or data gathering or validity of their conclusions they had to defend their shtick to the very hilt. I think they started out with good intentions, but they were over their heads scientifically, medically, mathematically and statistically speaking.
I personally think that after looking at issues, it’s just not possible to even qualify in a statistically reliable way - this thing called a “one shot stop”. And for addition reasons, it’s not possible to glean a statistically reliable correlation between this nebulously defined “one shot stop” and “ammo effectiveness” (another nebulous term).
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http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/drillbit.asp
There is also the case of Phineas Gage. Phineas was injured in an accident preparing to lay rail for a railroad. An accidental explosion of a charge he had set blew his tamping iron through his head. The tamping iron was 3 feet 7 inches long and weighed 13 1/2 pounds. It was 1 1/4 inches in diameter at one end and tapered over a distance of about 1-foot to a diameter of 1/4 inch at the other. The tamping iron went in point first under his left cheek bone and completely out through the top of his head, landing about 25 to 30 yards behind him. Phineas was knocked over but may not have lost consciousness even though most of the front part of the left side of his brain was destroyed
Again… if you can shoot someone with 1.25 caliber round and send it clean through his head – you expect to kill him.
According to Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow the 1.50 caliber auger round which reliably penetrates bone and flesh up to 18” has 0% street success. The 1.25 caliber tamping iron round which likewise completely penetrates bone also has a 0% street success rate. Me personally, if I had a choice between shooting someone with a .40 caliber bullet or a 1.25 caliber tamping iron – I’d choose the tamping iron. But that’s just me.
I just think it goes to show that there is no such thing as a “one shot stop”. It was an attempt to measure bullet effectiveness, it wasn’t a bad idea, but those two guys staked their livelihood on it – it became “their thing”. They were making money off the books, speaking etc.. and because of that – even when problems came to light about their methodology or data gathering or validity of their conclusions they had to defend their shtick to the very hilt. I think they started out with good intentions, but they were over their heads scientifically, medically, mathematically and statistically speaking.
I personally think that after looking at issues, it’s just not possible to even qualify in a statistically reliable way - this thing called a “one shot stop”. And for addition reasons, it’s not possible to glean a statistically reliable correlation between this nebulously defined “one shot stop” and “ammo effectiveness” (another nebulous term).
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PK,
I've seen .44Mag HP rounds fail to penetrate the shoulders of boar, when fired from a Marlin carbine. Stuck in the cartilage.
I've seen a guy hit a hog in the wrong spot on the skull with a .357 JHP, and have it accomplish exactly nothing.
But I've never heard of a service-grade JHP or HP bouncing off a human rib cage, if not at a glancing angle in the first place.
I've seen .44Mag HP rounds fail to penetrate the shoulders of boar, when fired from a Marlin carbine. Stuck in the cartilage.
I've seen a guy hit a hog in the wrong spot on the skull with a .357 JHP, and have it accomplish exactly nothing.
But I've never heard of a service-grade JHP or HP bouncing off a human rib cage, if not at a glancing angle in the first place.
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