FN 57 for self defense?

[PSP]

You meant she had seen the damage first hand?

Yes. Not only the effect on others but the devastating, ruinous injuries to her person. A very courageous woman that paid a high price to protect other people.

 

[Targa]

Ohazard, I don't disagree with your post entirely, there is a little bit of merit to that but I would also add people that work at a gun shop/range/training facility as well. Some of the most ingorant and uneducated information I have experienced has come from my LGS's gunsmiths, instructors and sales reps. I will also say that some of the more knowledgeable firearms related information has come from the same kind of people to include LEO's, military and veterans. Guess I am trying to make a point in a round about way theohazard, becareful about lumping everyone into a group, it flushes your credibility a bit.

 

[Kvon2]

I'm a huge fan of the 5.7 round and the pistol. The only reason I don't own one is the cost of ammo. I'll eventually own one but just can't justify it at this point given all of my shooting is plinking.

I'm of the attitude that any caliber will get the job done in a self defense situation, the most important thing is the shooters comfort with the round/firearm. If she likes it more than anything else she's shot, then two thumbs up.

 

[Theohazard]

I would also add people that work at a gun shop/range/training facility as well

Agreed, which is why I wouldn't expect you to believe what I say about firearms specifically because of where I work.

Guess I am trying to make a point in a round about way theohazard, becareful about lumping everyone into a group, it flushes your credibility a bit.

I never lumped everyone into a group, there are certainly some cops who know guns pretty well. But I was simply mentioning a commonly-observed trend. As someone who constantly deals with the general public regarding the subject of firearms, it's something I've observed over the years. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase, "My friend is in [the military/law enforcement] and he says...", followed by some terrible advice regarding firearms.

And it's not just cops; as a Marine Corps veteran it's something I've noticed amongst the military community, too. Too many Marines think they know guns simply because they have infantry training. And too many civilians think their Marine training automatically makes them gun experts.

Are all military/law enforcement folks full of bad gun info? No, of course not. But many are, and many regular folks think their credentials automatically make them gun experts, so they pay way too much attention to what they say on the subject.

 

[samsmix]

Theohazard & Targa,

I think the larger problem here is that most LEOs, Veterans, Security Guards, Hunters...hell most shooters...are men.

As such, we like to fix things. It is a strong suit for us, it is what we like to do. Couple this tendency with a testosterone driven subject, then multiply the whole mess by a society who's favorite art form (movies & TV) has told us from birth that the best gunfighter is the hero, the near-god, and ALWAYS gets the girl. Add it all up and every man wants to be an expert.

Example: I know guns. I know them very well. I know ballistics. I know them very well. I have read every available piece of information from the Strasbourg Goat tests to Marshall/Sanow Study, to the Taylor Formula, FBI clothed Gel tests, and everything in between. Certainly well enough to make an informed choice about what my wife or myself should carry...
...but every frickin' time I look at a handgun in a gun store, I get some fat bearded butt-in-ski telling me what I NEED to buy. Often it is the LAST thing I need to buy, the worst of all possible choices for my criteria.

...But they could see I "needed" their "help" and "expertise".
We are men. We fix things, and we ALWAYS know what's right!

 

[P71pilot]

I have heard it was less than ideal in documented swat shootings. From both the 5-7 pistol and P90. Aim for the head

 

[darkgael]

CNS?

The only way to incapacitate someone with a pistol round is hitting his cns...

Check out this video of the Reagan assassination attempt....four adult males incapacitated by a .22. Reagan the least... Wounded by a richocet. Brady downed by a CNS shot. The police officer and the Secret Serviceman are both down and out.... Neither a CNS shot.
http://youtu.be/jJ6n9plkunY

 

[mrray13]

As an LEO going on 8 years, I've got a little experience, up to being shot at while doing 110mph. (chasing bank robbers, and yeah, I caught them) I've got a little firearms knowledge as well, so maybe I'm the worst one should listen too.

That said, I work for a "provide your own" department. I currently carry a S&W M&P 40 with a light. It's loaded with 165g Gold Dots. I don't feel undergunned at all, but approached my Sheriff and Chief Deputy about going to .22TCM after doing some research. I also asked about the 5.7. Denied. Why? Bullet size. Even though, for the 5.7, I brought up a few of the documented cases of it being used, the results, as well as knowledge that at least two fairly local officers are carrying them, my Sheriff thinks I would be at a disadvantage. There's no use arguing with him, so I've put it on a back burner for now.

From my limited knowledge, I think the caliber is a viable choice. If there was a possible downside, at least in my situation, it would be windshield performance. That's where I'm the least sure it would work.

 

[44 AMP]

I don't understand the whole physiology of what it takes incapacitate someone.

I've seen so many people incapacitated with a punch or kick that doesn't even penetrate the body why does a projectile need to hit a major blood vessel to stop a fight?

One of the reasons it seems so confusing is because of all the various terms being thrown around. Another reason is that we are all different individuals, and what works in one situation may not work in another, simply because the people involved are different people.

Stopping an attack relies on one of two factors, either physical or mental. Sometimes both together, but one of them is always the cause.

Mental: Quite simply it is when the attacker decides to stop the attack. For any or every reason. They are physically still capable of attack, but are mentally "incapacitated" meaning they have decided not to attack any more. The classic example is a bad guy getting slightly wounded and surrendering, or fleeing.

Physical: when the attacker still wishes to attack, but cannot because they are physically incapable of doing so. This means either something stopping the brain from sending the message to the body, or the body not physically capable (due to damage) of responding.

The CNS hit is most effective (generally) because it is most immediate. When the brain says "pull the trigger" but the hand never gets the message, the trigger doesn't get pulled.

The only things proven to work reliably in all cases are those that either stop the brain from sending the message in the first place, or keep the message from getting to the hand with the gun (or whatever).

Physical damage to the brain or CNS works. Loss of blood pressure to the brain works. The main difference in the effectiveness of these is TIME. It may take time for loss of blood pressure to have its effect. Time during which a determined attacker can continue, possibly killing you, before being "stopped".

EDUCATION /TRAINING makes a difference. And by this I don't mean the formal kind. I mean the subconscious kind. We have, for generations, been "training" people, through movies, TV, and lately video games that people who get shot, fall down and are stopped.

There are people who do this, no matter what they are hit with, or where. And there are people who do not. Its not something you can count on, but it does, sometimes, happen. It depends on the mental make up of the attacker.

Regarding the 5.7mm specifically, I'm not very familiar with the round, so I had to look it up. Data I found says its a .22cal 40gr bullet doing in the 2300s fps from a pistol.

Stopping power? effectiveness as a defensive round? Would we even be having this discussion if the round were the .22 Hornet???

The ability to stop a determined attacker, and the ability to cause a fatal wound are NOT the same thing. EVERYTHING can kill.

What works adequately in a military situation may not be the best choice for personal self defense. Likewise, what is effective for cold blooded murder might not be the best choice for personal defense.

I think the best choice is the largest caliber you can use well enough. For some of us, that's a .45, for others a 9mm. IF your wife can handle the 5.7mm well, and not bigger rounds, then the 5.7 is it. Better a light round you can use than a heavy one you cannot.

 

[PSP]

If there was a possible downside, at least in my situation, it would be windshield performance. That's where I'm the least sure it would work.

Then check this out. The video shows a 5.7 round, (not the bonded AP round), penetrating armoured glass. A very impressive performance IMHO. Note the rounds tested that did not penetrate. I own the gun and have always liked it but this really got my attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_teY8vwwXvA

Hickok45 shoots a heavy steel truck door with a 5.7. Zips through like you'd expect a larger round to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RTJZI-UXNA

 

[sliclee]

FN 57

They make 3 kinds of ammo,civilians can't buy the two best kinds.
That ends that. You will never hear your shot fired if you are protecting yourself. Ask any hunter if they hear the shot when firing at something.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You will never hear your shot fired if you are protecting yourself. Ask any hunter if they hear the shot when firing at something.

Probably true in nearly all shootings (SD or hunting) -- as your attention is focused elsewhere.

The sad part is that while you may not HEAR it, your ears will likely be damaged by the noise. But I think we will all agree it's better to have damaged hearing than NO hearing, which may be the other option.

 

[darkgael]

note

Data I found says its a .22cal 40gr bullet doing in the 2300s fps from a pistol.]

Much as I am a fan of the FiveSeven pistol....that is way too hot for any legally available ammo with the exception of the specialty and very expensive ammo available from Elite Ammunition. Even from EA, the 40 grainer clocks at about 2100 fps from the pistol.

Pete