Flat National Sales Tax

I discern a bit of "let's soak the rich" approach here:
That is the exact opposite of my argument against the current system. The first sentence of my third post was "The system as it stands is absolutely unfair and lopsided." The point of that was to say that I DO NOT think that the "rich", however you define that, should pay a disproportionately greater tax. The Libs, by the way, have a definition of "rich". They have for years have tried to convince their supporters that rich is evil and the deffinition of rich is anyone who has more money than you. Hence my very first comment: "The problem with sales tax instead of income tax is that it is regressive." The Dems would be all over that as being "more tax breaks for the rich". I think the problem is that I failed to make my stance clear and as a result you are paying more attention to what CDH thinks my point was rather than what I actually wrote.

p.s. CDH I am one of the guys that WRITES payrol checks.
 
Kaylee said:
Well now that's just silly.

The item itself is a much greater proportion of the lower earner's wage. Of course the taxes are as well. Why in the world should it be different?
Yes it is silly, but my guess is that would not stop the Libs from making an issue out of it. When we got the tax rebates they threw a fit because the people who hadn't payed any taxes didn't get a check too.
 
The rate of this tax is about 23%
As most people vote their wallets, this will never fly. There's a whole lot of us that pay less than 23% (after deductions and exclusions in the current system. BTW, I am retired and on a fixed income.)

the needs of every man are offset by gov't compensation for the necessities
Sorry, this smacks of something straight out of the Socialist Handbook. (And who gets to determine what is a "necessity"? (and who's going to fund the government for this compensation?)

The estate tax is far more regressive and repressive than is sales tax. Estate taxation is simply socialistic distribution of wealth, pure and simple.

Ah, the dreaded "Estate Tax". It's on the ballot here is Washington this year.
Even though it doesn't affect me I probably will vote to do away with it. But not for the reasons the "anti's" are pushing on the local TV. They would have you think that the government is going to take away your single-wide, your old Chevy and throw the your kids out in the cold when you die.
It doesn't even kick in until your estate exceeds 2 Million (4 Million for a couple) and then the tax is only on the excess. It affects less than 1% of the citizens of the State. However, I'm against it just because it isn't fair.
 
"There's a whole lot of us that pay less than 23%"

Maybe in Income tax

But what about ALL the other taxes?

And this would be 23% of what you spend (on luxuries)....not on every dime that you make

Unfortunately firearms would fall under that description :(

Except for used firearms....where the tax had already been paid

same with used cars, etc.
 
I think we are mixing a "Flat Tax" with a "National Sales Tax" (VAT?) here. Or are you proposing both?
Also, taxing only "luxuries". I would be very interested in knowing what would be considered a "necessity" and what would be considered a "luxury". I can and have lived pretty simply. One doesn't really need a car, a house, or most of the other things that a most of us consider necessities. Plain basic food, some sort of a shelter. That's about it. Life is boring......
 
deadin does make one think, ..example, did I really need to buy that $2,000 Ed Brown, or could I have spent that on food for 4 months and put the rest in savings..
 
I'd feel fine about a flat, nationally imposed sales tax. Tennessee has one of the highest sales taxes anywhere, and I'd just bet ours would come WAY down to match everyone else's.
 
SixForSure, You mentioned a state of tax compared to the earnings of two different pay scales, I fail to see where the amount of money earned has anything to do with the charged tax as in fact both paid the exact same tax for the purchase therefore the tax was equal and fair, and if I remember correctly under the Flat User Tax Proposed there would no longer be a IRS nor would there be any with-holdings from Parole, the whole point was to level the Tax field to an equal and fair playing field and this form of tax does that, at least under a user tax sysyem, which means you only pay taxes on the items you buy or consume.
 
Pulled this off the web.
Description of Various "Flat Tax" Proposals
CTJ, November 1, 1998


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The "flat tax" was first proposed by two Stanford economists, Robert Hall and Alvin Rabushka, in their 1983 book "Low Tax, Simple Tax, Flat Tax." The Hall-Rabushka plan, on which the Armey-Shelby bill is based, would replace the current personal income and corporate income tax structure with a two-level tax designed to tax all income exactly once, and at the same rate (in H-R's version, 19 percent). A number of so-called "flat tax" plans have been proposed by various prominent Republicans to replace the current federal personal income tax and the corporate income tax. The prototype proposal was put forward by House Majority Leader Richard Armey (R-Tex.), and has been sketchily drafted into actual legislation sponsored by Armey and Sen. Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) Introduced as legislation in 1994 and reintroduced in 1995, the Armey-Shelby bill was last revised in March of 1997.




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The Armey plan
Among the key elements of the Armey plan are:
Individuals would report only wages and pensions on their individual tax forms. Small business owners would pay themselves a salary so they could file an individual tax form (along with a business tax form) to take advantage of the proposed exemptions from the wage tax.
Income from interest, dividends and capital gains would not be reported on any form.
All individual itemized deductions and credits would be eliminated. Thus, there would be no deductions for mortgage interest, state and local taxes, charitable contributions or extraordinary medical expenses; no credit for child-care expenses; and no earned-income tax credit for low- and moderate-income working families.
Most adult taxpayers would be allowed a personal exemption of $11,000 each (two exemptions for couples), except that unmarried parents would get a $14,400 exemption each. There would be an additional deduction of $5,000 per child.
The flat tax would also apply (without exemptions) to employer-paid fringe benefits, defined to include employer-paid health insurance, certain other fringe benefits and the social security taxes (7.65% of wages up to $63,700) that employers pay on their employees' behalf. The new fringe benefits tax would be collected from all employers, including state and local governments and non-profit organizations. There is general agreement that its burden would fall on workers in the form of reduced benefits and/or cash wages.
Businesses would file tax forms similar to the current forms, except that (a) all capital investments and inventory purchases would be deductible immediately, rather than depreciated or deducted when goods are sold; (b) business income from dividends and capital gains would not be reported; (c) interest income would not be included in income and interest expenses would not be deductible; and (d) outlays for tickets to sporting events, country club memberships, skyboxes, business meals, etc. would be 100% deductible, rather than only 50% deductible (or completely non-deductible) as under current law.
The federal estate tax would be repealed.
There would be no transition rules from the old system to the new one. Thus, for example, businesses would lose unused depreciation deductions on previous purchases of machinery and buildings.
Rep. Armey proposes a 20% tax rate in 1997 and 1998, dropping to 17% starting in 1999.
According to both Armey and the Treasury Department, at the proposed 20% rate and assuming no transition rules and no changes in taxpayer behavior to avoid the new tax, Armey's plan would lose at least $30 billion a year in tax revenues. At Armey's promised 17% rate, Treasury says the plan would add $138 billion to the annual budget deficit (in 1996 dollars).
According to the Treasury Department, at what Treasury says is a break even rate of 20.82% (or for that matter, at Armey's proposed 20% rate), the Armey plan would increase taxes sharply on all income groups except those earning more than $200,000 a year. (Others believe that the break-even rate would have to be considerably higher than Treasury finds.)

This is but one proposed form, and I'm sure there are others, all in all, anything would be better than what we have now, which is if you make enough you don't pay, and if you don't make enough you don't pay, where does this leave the middle income, wage earners.
 
Kelly J said:
SixForSure, You mentioned a state of tax compared to the earnings of two different pay scales, I fail to see where the amount of money earned has anything to do with the charged tax as in fact both paid the exact same tax for the purchase
I had hoped that by saying:
"The problem with sales tax instead of income tax is that it is regressive." The Dems would be all over that as being "more tax breaks for the rich".
in a subsequent post would have clarified why I thought it was a problem. I guess it didn't.:mad: Let me try one more time this way: I DO NOT think that any form of flat tax is unfair. The problem is that anything that the Libs can spin as benefiting the "rich" would stall any kind of tax reform. I see lack of tax reform as being a problem.
 
deadin: A vote to eliminate estate taxation in WA will have no effect on estate taxation in WA, as there'll still be the Feds to pay, with no credit for taxes paid to WA.

Yeah, I'm not affected directly by estate taxes, either, but then, so far, I haven't been murdered yet, either. The fact that the tax is obscene and anti-capitalist, regardless of the number of Americans' required to pay estate taxes, is the basis for my opinion that the estate tax should be eliminated.

BTW, $4M exclusion would only be if property were distributed correctly, etc. Many who can afford it buy large insurance policies for the purpose of paying estate taxes. It's absurd that American citizens should be "forced" to buy life insurance for the benefit of those in whom no insurable interest exists.

The estate tax exclusions haven't always been so generous. It'd only take one term of a DemocRAT Congress to rescind any exclusions currently in the IRS code regarding estate taxes.
 
Hey, guys, quit busting SixForSure's chops. I already tried it. He's startin' to git upset and my ears are ringing ovah heah! :)
 
National Sales Tax

I've always thought the idea of a National Sales Tax (VAT?) would be good. The biggest argument I can see against it is that I really can't see the Feds giving up the existing tax structure in order to implement. In other words, I wouldn't expect to see the elimination of income tax in lieu of NST...I think we would end up with both.

I've rarely seen the elimination of a tax structure. I did live in Alaska when they eliminated their income tax. I don't know of another, such significant example.
 
The National Sales Tax (the so-called Fair Tax) is different from a Value Added Tax (VAT) in that it is imposed at the point of retail sale only. The Value Added Tax can be added at any point along the path of manufacture or marketing.
 
The most important thing about the Fair Tax is the ELIMINATION of all hidden taxes, and the most efficient way of collecting any tax.

Prices will not change much, because the "Hidden Taxes" paid for you by the companies that deliver the goods will be GONE. The Federal Tax will be upfront where we can all see it. NO TAXES taken out of your pay.

Everyone receives a monthly check from the Fed Gov as compensation for taxes on the basic neccesities of life. You, me and Warren Buffet (you know, the guy so rich he hired Bill Gates to Spend his Money for him!)

The tax is collected only ONCE on an item. This means our more wealthy members buy every 9mm pistol on the market, wring them out good, pick two and sell the rest. They pay the taxes, us poor folks picks them up on the used market and we don't pay the tax.

Geoff
Who likes the Flat Fee, but I'll settle for the Fair Tax. :D
 
I am in full support of the Fair Tax Act. It is supported by Michelle Bachman who is running for congress in Minnesota. I'm in the wrong district otherwise I'd vote for her.
 
SixForSure, My point is a simple one that the tax would be equal to all and at the exact same rate therefore the Democrats would have no basis for an argument in any format to in effect claim that the rich or the poor were not paying an equal tax, based on income or wealth.
 
Kelly J,
I agree 100% about the tax. I just think it may be a bit optimistic to think that the Democrats would let little things like facts, truth, and reality get in the way of their argument. Come to think of it, NO politician would.:)
 
I will admit, I am afraid to have anything change in the current tax structure, mainly because I don't trust those that will implement the change to do it fairly.
I am retired and living on Social Security, a Navy retirement and a modest IRA that was accumulated during 20 years working after doing my 20 in the Navy. I have got my finances (and taxes) under control and can live with it.
What I can't do is charge off into a brave new world and take the chance that my carefully laid plans and finances are going to go to hell in a handbasket. This may be OK for you younger folks that have a chance to readjust if things go sour. I just don't have the inclination or time to start over.

Dean
 
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