First time reloading for revolver

[Shadow9mm]

W231 Temp. sensative.... I load at sea level @ ` 75F. I've shot loads @ 4800' and @ 118F (Past Barstow Ca.). Too many put too much B.S. into temperature sensitivity w/o understanding the high / low of the actual question.

Unless we are talking Arctic / High Southern Desert dichotomy too much emphisis is put on the subject at all but the most most extreme ends of the load data. Some Ball Powders need an extra hot flame to ignite at extra cold temperatures.

i.e. All Ball powders require Magnum primers. Absolute pure B.S.

As far as temp sensitivity, it can be a valid question. Where I am if I work a load up in the winter it might be 10-30F. In the summer, 80-100F. Went to college in Florida up in the man handle. winter temps got down into the 30s. Summer was generally in the 90s and up. And if you have ammo sitting in the sun it can get mighty warm.

Found this here https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/powder-less-affected-by-temperature.804961/

Standard/Temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at higher temps):
- Clays
- Titegroup
- W231/HP-38
- Power Pistol

Reverse/inverse temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at lower temps):
- Competition
- WST
- Solo 1000
- N320 (but some claim reverse temp sensitivity)
- SR7625
- Universal
- WSF
- Silhouette

and this here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/idpaforum/winchester-231-t4998.html
If you're going to shoot 231 in a cold weather match (in Florida that means 50 degrees or less) don't count on your velocity figures taken at 75+ degrees holding up. Win 231 will wimp out in cold weather. It is very temperature sensitive. I've chronoed loads at 72 degrees from a .38 revolver, and picked up 85 fps at 90 degrees... and lost 75 fps at 50 degrees.... same loads from the same batch, same gun. If you develop a load at 80+ degrees, figure on losing a fair amount of velocity 50-8- fps) if your temperatures dip into the 50s. Win 231 doesn't like cold weather. If you know you're going to be chronoed early on a cold day, stick your ammo on the top of the dash board and turn the defrost on to High Heat... then keep the chrono loads in a pocket... next to your warm body, and run those. You might get as much as 80 fps between those and the cold loads in your range bag.
Chris Christian

Going to have to do some testing with Power Pistol and W231 at high and low temps now. And yet another project.... least this will be an easy one with my established loads.

 

[308Loader]

running into confusing load data. consulting several sources for W231 and 125gr bullets some start charges are others MAX charges for example.

Sierra 4.8 to 5.8
Hornady 9th and 11th 4.8 to 5.7 (5.7 being +P)
Lyman 50th 3.9 to 5.1 (+P 5.4)
Hodgdon site 3.8 to 4.8
complete book of reloading 2021 max 4.9

was going do go with Hornady data until I cross checked against other sources. now I'm concerned that might be too hot. pistol is RI M200. says rated for +p but not to feed it a steady diet of the stuff.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

For plated bullets, I generally start at mid level lead loads and end at mid level jacketed loads. I’d say 90% of the time I find the best loads at about the middle level of these guidelines. As far as crimping, I’ll load up a dummy and chuck it in my inertia bullet puller. Then I’ll see how many good whacks it takes to loosen a bullet. If it takes 3-4 whacks to move it I’m good. Then check the bullet after pulling it to make sure the crimp doesn’t break through the plating, if it exposes the bare lead it’s too heavy. This is just my method, ymmv.

 

[Shadow9mm]

running into confusing load data. consulting several sources for W231 and 125gr bullets some start charges are others MAX charges for example.

Sierra 4.8 to 5.8
Hornady 9th and 11th 4.8 to 5.7 (5.7 being +P)
Lyman 50th 3.9 to 5.1 (+P 5.4)
Hodgdon site 3.8 to 4.8
complete book of reloading 2021 max 4.9

was going do go with Hornady data until I cross checked against other sources. now I'm concerned that might be too hot. pistol is RI M200. says rated for +p but not to feed it a steady diet of the stuff.

I would go with the Hodgdon data personally for the XTP as it has a similar profile.
125g xtp 4.3 to 4.9 at 934
125g lrnfp 3.8 to 4.8 at 1071


Only restrictions with plated bullets is speed. Berry's says not to push them past 1250fps. Long as you stay under that I used jacketed data with no issue.

Generally lead data will be a bit lighter load wise.

In relation to +P loads. If your gun says only occasional use, not a steady diet, I would not bother working loads up for it and focus on a good load for everyday use. You can always tinker with +P later of you really want to.

This is just my experience, but I have a GP100 in 357 mag. I pushed 38pls hard, into +P territory and well beyond up to magnum levels. What I found was I was trying to turn 38spl into something it was not and learned to enjoy 38spl for what it is. But to each their own YMMV.

 

[Nick_C_S]

TiteGroup?

You're getting lots of good info here. I'll add to it a little . . .

I checked my extensive data on 38 Special, 125gn bullets. Turns out, I don't have any for W231 (or HP-38). I was a little surprised; yet, I wasn't surprised. Generally, when I'm loading 38Spl with W231, I'm loading 148gn wadcutters. And when I'm loading 125gn bullets (sometimes plated FP's like yours, but more often, JHP's) I generally pump 'em up a bit (+P). And when I do that, it's often with something other than W231, for whatever reason, just my load style, I guess.

I noticed you have TiteGroup. Now I have phased out TG from my inventory, but when I used to load with it, I had clean, consistent burns. It runs hot, so I quickly learned to only use plated bullets with it (or at least not lead). My basic loading with a 125 PFP, was 4.6gn. It yielded 860 f/s through a 4" bbl (Smith Model 67). The stouter +P loading was 5.0gn and yielded 968 f/s. If this is of interest to you, remember to start low and work up. It was good ammo. Clean and consistent, with minimal recoil.

TiteGroup makes great plated range fodder. Sounds like just what you're looking for. It's really dense stuff, so much so, that you can load 4, or sometimes even 5 charges before it overflows a 38Spl case. Just an FYI. Always check your fill levels (regardless of propellant used).

Addition:

Berrys lists a col of 1.445 for 38spl with the 125g flat (point).

And that's where I set mine. I also use a taper crimp die for plated bullets, but I'll spare that bunny trail.

 

[308Loader]

Thanks again for the input guys. I decided to back down my original starting charge to 3.8. Then loaded another 12 at 4.3 and another 12 at 4.8. looking into the case I had to laugh at how little powder was in that long case. I know original design was for black powder... There is barley even fart dust in there. Going to be too cold to set up chronograph tomorrow, will just pop a few off and see how they feel and shoot. If it ever gets above freezing again, I will repeat with chronograph to check velocities.

Nick, I too am phasing out Tight Group. Shoots fine with everything I have loaded it with. Just don't like the scorched cases, hot barrels in short round counts, and most of all summer 9mm load has cycling issues at 30f or below. I'm sure I could work it out but why. Bad time to start exploring different powders but I was able to find 2#'s of 231.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Yep, it looks small in the pan on the scale, looks like nothing in the case. Gets the bullets moving though.

I still run my chrono in the cold. Keep the unit in the car, with the 9v inside my jacket pocket. battery in, on the tripod, let it warm up for about 1min. Then I run a known load over it to verify its running correctly, and start testing. Coldest I have tested is 18F if I remember right....

 

[nhyrum]

most of all summer 9mm load has cycling issues at 30f or below. I'm sure I could work it out but why. Bad time to start exploring different powders but I was able to find 2#'s of 231.

Warmer weather will result in faster velocities because the primer and load has to waste less energy getting everything to a temperature/energy state to burn. Colder weather will result in the opposite. It's a reason why I'm a proponent of testing hunting loads in the weather you will hunt in. Testing everything in the 110 degree heat of summer that you'll be using to hunt in sub zero temperatures is just a bad idea, the load won't perform the same. Loads that are on the hot side in winter can be over pressure in summer, and loads that are just above the level to function in a semi auto in summer, will fail to function in the cold, so I always test me loads in both extremes to check for any issues.

As for the Chrono. If it's cold outside, you want the Chrono to be cold. A big temperature change can cause the glass to collect dew that can affect readings, so I'd just check to make sure they're free of any condensation. I've used my Chrono in below zero weather just fine, but I think at about -25 F or colder and it really gets unhappy, but I guess they don't expect people to be at the range when it's that cold.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Shadow9mm]

Unless there are hail stones or lightning, it's always a good time to be at the range.

Didn't think about the lenses fogging. Ambient might be better, but I would still warm the battery up.

 

[Unclenick]

Use Energizer lithium batteries. They are much less affected by the cold. Available in 9V and AA shapes.

 

[308Loader]

Just for clarity, I meant too cold for me. High was 20F I'm sure the chronograph might have worked just fine. opted to stay in and work on more pistol loads using 231. Next weekend will be more of the same cold temp, but I will have more loads to test over chronograph. thus, making the effort more worthwhile.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Just for clarity, I meant too cold for me. High was 20F I'm sure the chronograph might have worked just fine. opted to stay in and work on more pistol loads using 231. Next weekend will be more of the same cold temp, but I will have more loads to test over chronograph. thus, making the effort more worthwhile.

you will have bullets in the mail tomorrow as well

 

[cdoc42]

Just getting into this thread, so I'll add what I use for what it's worth. I just read through it quickly, and maybe someone mentioned this but I'll do it again. Be sure you have a .38 Special that warns you not to shoot +P loads. If your .38 also shoots .357, that should solve that issue.

For years I used a Small Pistol Primer, 125gr JHP (Remington, then Winchester) with 6.5gr of Unique, with no problems. When I bought the 50th Ed. of Lyman manual, it listed 6.0gr as max, and Alliant lists 6.0gr as a +P load. So I figured the safest thing to do is drop down to 6.0gr and I have no problems with that in my Ruger GP100. The COL is 1.455" but that will depend on the location of the cannelure on your chosen bullet.

With the primer shortage, I saved SPP for my 9mm and used CCI Small Rifle Primers, and again, had no problems. Note I did not have the occasion to chrono the loads.

I also use a 158gr cast bullet over 6.5 gr of Blue Dot (Max listed load is 6.6gr) with a Small Rifle Primer and COL of 1.500". Again, no chrono used.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Just getting into this thread, so I'll add what I use for what it's worth. I just read through it quickly, and maybe someone mentioned this but I'll do it again. Be sure you have a .38 Special that warns you not to shoot +P loads. If your .38 also shoots .357, that should solve that issue.

For years I used a Small Pistol Primer, 125gr JHP (Remington, then Winchester) with 6.5gr of Unique, with no problems. When I bought the 50th Ed. of Lyman manual, it listed 6.0gr as max, and Alliant lists 6.0gr as a +P load. So I figured the safest thing to do is drop down to 6.0gr and I have no problems with that in my Ruger GP100. The COL is 1.455" but that will depend on the location of the cannelure on your chosen bullet.

With the primer shortage, I saved SPP for my 9mm and used CCI Small Rifle Primers, and again, had no problems. Note I did not have the occasion to chrono the loads.

I also use a 158gr cast bullet over 6.5 gr of Blue Dot (Max listed load is 6.6gr) with a Small Rifle Primer and COL of 1.500". Again, no chrono used.

The Op stated that per the manual occasional +P use was acceptable in post #23. However in going through the manual I was only able to find this

The M200 REVOLVER is chambered for Cal.38
Special cartridges manufactured in accordance
with standard industry practice.

Manual for the M200 here https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/559399/Armscor_March2020%20Theme/Pdf%20Files/I_-_Manual_-_Revolver.pdf

 

[308Loader]

https://www.guns.com/news/review/gun-review-rock-island-armory-m200-revolver-in-38-special

I guess I should consider my source “Rock Island Armory says that the M200 can hand a “limited” diet of +p .38 Special, but I erred on the side of caution and did not cross that bridge. I am satisfied using non +p loads, but others may not be.” I am not looking to load +p for this pistol, 800-850FPS is fine with me. Read a similar statement elsewhere too.

Finally got to shooting my reloads last Sunday, it was a beautiful 40f and sunny. Setup my Caldwell chronograph and had at it. Couldn’t get the app to work on the phone so I had to handwrite velocities in a notebook. Used Winchester white box 125’s as a benchmark, registered at 825 to 883fps. Then shot reloads of W231 at 3.8, 4.3, and 4.8. 3.8 was a powder puff load with speeds between 502fps to 745fps, registered one at 281fps. Some unburnt powder. 4.3 gave me 566 to 716fps one at 444fps again some, but less unburnt powder. 4.8 gave me 788 to 862fps one at 745fps. This seems to be a good load, needs some tweaking. Budget pistol and load. Powder position is probably to blame for light ones. Thoughts?

 

[Shadow9mm]

https://www.guns.com/news/review/gun-review-rock-island-armory-m200-revolver-in-38-special

I guess I should consider my source “Rock Island Armory says that the M200 can hand a “limited” diet of +p .38 Special, but I erred on the side of caution and did not cross that bridge. I am satisfied using non +p loads, but others may not be.” I am not looking to load +p for this pistol, 800-850FPS is fine with me. Read a similar statement elsewhere too.

Finally got to shooting my reloads last Sunday, it was a beautiful 40f and sunny. Setup my Caldwell chronograph and had at it. Couldn’t get the app to work on the phone so I had to handwrite velocities in a notebook. Used Winchester white box 125’s as a benchmark, registered at 825 to 883fps. Then shot reloads of W231 at 3.8, 4.3, and 4.8. 3.8 was a powder puff load with speeds between 502fps to 745fps, registered one at 281fps. Some unburnt powder. 4.3 gave me 566 to 716fps one at 444fps again some, but less unburnt powder. 4.8 gave me 788 to 862fps one at 745fps. This seems to be a good load, needs some tweaking. Budget pistol and load. Powder position is probably to blame for light ones. Thoughts?

W231 is not terribly position sensitive in my experience. Did you weight or throw the charges. With taper crimp on the played bullets I found I got lower velocity compared to roll crimped bullets with crimp grooves. I would suggest a slight increase in the taper crimp might improve consistency.

 

[308Loader]

All charges were dispensed with lock and load auto charge. charge weights were consistent. crimp looked good, I'll try a little more next time. velocities were not verry consistent.

3.8gr 4.3gr 4.8gr
572 693 788
502 633 834
617 600 745
513 689 843
542 566 862
526 584 845
745 444 805
464 716 797
505 694 805
657 718 797

 

[Unclenick]

No, but note that the warm load did significantly better (by about a factor of two and a half). This suggests ignition is not going well with the smaller charges.

One thing you can do is slug the chamber throats and, assuming the usual variation, get them reamed to a uniform size. This usually helps accuracy as well as improving velocity consistency.

 

[Shadow9mm]

No, but note that the warm load did significantly better (by about a factor of two and a half). This suggests ignition is not going well with the smaller charges.

One thing you can do is slug the chamber throats and, assuming the usual variation, get them reamed to a uniform size. This usually helps accuracy as well as improving velocity consistency.

What does a chamber ream usually cost? Being that it's a budget $200 revolver I would personally lean towards larger diameter bullets, as the berrys plated are probably on the small side In relation to the throat.

 

[308Loader]

One thing to note on the data I posted, I only listed the first 10 of 15 at each charge weight. So, kind of incomplete data set, sorry. The reason I say that is the 13th shot at 3.8 only went 281fps. Primers are brand new fresh out the box, hand primed cases. what would cause such an incomplete burn? after cleaning and sizing the cases I looked at the flash holes and all seem to be centered and of appropriate size. Powder is fresh opened 1# canister.

Thanks for running the numbers for me, couldn't get the app to work on my phone. Haven't had time to run them down myself yet. you guys are the best