First post in this Forum

[Jim Watson]

I think No 47 is a COPY of a Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector revolver, probably from Spain. A real S&W has the trigger guard integral with the frame, this gun has pin holes to retain a separate trigger guard which is missing here. Perhaps it came from the same Bubba as the little Beretta. The hammer pivot below the latch to swing out the cylinder is not a screw on a real S&W. The hammer is not quite the right shape. The pearl handles appear to have a S&W monogram medallion but they do not fit properly and are not likely original to the gun.
The second digit in the label is not readable. It might be caliber .38, there is a black powder .38 cartridge that is the Spanish equivalent of the old .38 Long Colt. It might be recent enough to be a .38 Special.
It might be caliber .32 which could be the .32 Winchester Center Fire also known as .32-20, that was a popular cartridge in Spanish copies. I am sorry there are so many "mights" but that is all I can tell.

No 52 is a Colt model of 1903 Pocket Hammerless in caliber .32 ACP = 7.65mm Browning. The serial number is legible, it was made in late 1919.
Condition is better than most guns in the collection, it still has its magazine, and it is still a desirable firearm in the USA.

No 55 is what remains of a nearly destroyed Remington Model 51 pistol made from 1918 til 1934. Caliber is (was) probably .380 ACP = 9mm Browning Short. They made some in .32 ACP but they are much less common. In that condition, it hardly matters.

 

[Jim Watson]

As SDC said, the ITALO revolver is a cheap copy of the cheap German Rohm RG 25. It is a real functional (sometimes) firearm, probably caliber .22.
[Editorial comment: The avalability of RGs contributed to the passage of legislation to restrict the importation of small firearms to the USA. That had little effect on criminal activity but protected US gun companies from foreign competition.]

The short or shortened Winchester rifle, no 39 above, is a model of 1892 and was available in a number of calibers, .25 WCF, .32 WCF, .38 WCF, and .44 WCF. It is not possible to tell for sure which from that picture. The size of the magazine tube indicates that it is either a .38 WCF (also known as .38-40 from the nominal caliber and the standard charge of black powder) or .44 WCF (.44-40.) It is most probably a .44 WCF.

 

[jurupari]

Three revolvers this time, only one with label.

I liked that "sometimes" adverb about the Italo... excuse my ignorance: what are RGs? Do US gun companies need a protectionist policy? never thought about that, they look they're doing pretty well.

What do you think about "personalizing" arms? I visited a site about the Mauser rifle, and there were pictures of modified guns that had almost nothing to do with the original weapon, only the action still persisting. If I had the luck of owning such a nice weapon (in good conditions, of course) I think I would keep it with no alterations.

Just for a change, thanks to you, Jim and to you, SDC. As I said once, not only identifications, but - maybe more - your comments are precious in this search, and I'm reporting all of them to my friend in Brazil.

 

[Jim Watson]

No 54, labeled as "Goliat, cal. .38" is a Spanish copy of a Colt Police Positive Special revolver. I have nothing about the maker other than the country of origin. The actual cartridge might be either .38 black powder similar to the obsolete .38 Long Colt or .38 Special.

No 56 is an interesting gun, a Spanish revolver which is made to look like a Smith & Wesson Military and Police but actually operates like a Colt. I do not know the name of the maker. The cylinder rotates clockwise like a Colt (S&W is anticlockwise) and the sideplate over the action parts is on the left side instead of the right like a real S&W. Caliber may be .38 as above or .32 WCF/.32-20.

No 57 is a Smith & Wesson Safety Hammerless, caliber .32 S&W. The design came out in 1888, I think this is a third model as made from 1909 til 1937. It is an ugly little gun but very popular, they made about 250,000 of them in three models, and as many more in five models of .38 caliber. It is not truly hammerless, just that the hammer is internal. The bar down the back of the grip is a safety which must be depressed by the grasp of the shooter to let the gun fire.

 

[Jim Watson]

Comments:

RGs are cheap pistols and revolvers made in Germany by Rohm GmbH. I have seen revolvers from .22 short up to .44 Magnum; automatic pistols in .22 and .25 calibers, and a double barrelled .38 derringer. Their importation to the USA was banned in 1968 under the guise of crime control by preventing the sale of small pistols. Here described as "Saturday Night Specials" due to the custom of people in poor districts getting drunk on Saturday night and starting fights with knives and such cheap guns as they could afford.

It was not long before there was a domestic industry in cheap guns to fill the vacancy in the market, the law did not affect local manufacture.

However, the law, the Gun Control Act of 1968, also banned ANY gun below a certain size and kept many high quality small guns off the US market too. It greatly reduced sales by Browning and Walther here. These are the pistols that Colt and Smith & Wesson were just as glad to see removed from the market. They did not care about the cheap guns, but were glad of the trade protection from good quality imported weapons.

 

[Jim Watson]

Personalized guns:

There has been a good business in custom firearms in a big market like the USA for a long time. The practice of converting military actions to handsome sporting arms is commonly called "sporterizing." It can be done very nicely, reasonably well, or at the Bubba level.
One of the most famous here is the Springfield rifle converted to sporting style for President Theodore Roosevelt for an African Safari in 1909.

There is now a good deal of opposition to modifying firearms of historical interest, both military and commercial. Almost any alteration of a sound service rifle or pistol will be dismissed as Bubba work, even if well done and to the taste of the owner. There are so many guns available that have already been altered to some extent that you can have one redone to produce a "personalized" gun without devaluing what many see as a Historical Artifact.

I know that a Colt model 1911 .45 automatic pistol in good condition and unaltered as issued to the US armed forces in World War I or II is worth substantially more money to a collector than a new pistol of the same type.

 

[SDC]

No problem at all, Jurupari; playing "name that gun" is a time-honoured hobby among gun cranks, and it's enjoyable to boot. An "RG" is one of a large number of cheap handguns built by Rohm Gesellschaft, a German company; before the US Gun Control Act of 1968 (passed as a result of the assassination of Kennedy), large numbers of these cheap guns were imported into the US. Italy, Spain, and other countries all had similar makes and models of cheap handguns that were essentially "dumped" into the US, and they made up the bulk of what are called "saturday night specials". The generic RG design was so popular, that after the GCA '68, the rights to produce those revolvers were bought by an American manufacturer so they could be built in the US (the bill outlawed the importation of those guns, but they could, and can, still legally be built in the US). Anyway, an "RG" is basically shorthand for any cheap handgun that you could basically consider "disposable", and that might or might not last for more than a box or two of ammunition. With that out of the way, onto the fun

Picture 54 is of a Spanish-made "Goliat" revolver, made by Antonio Errasti of Eibar, in either 32 S&W Long, or 38 Special; it's a copy of a Colt Police Positive, but this one looks like the barrel has been chopped off, because it should have a half-moon front sight.

Picture 56 doesn't have enough detail for me to make out the logo on the grip, and the grips (and cylinder latch) may or may not even be original to the revolver to begin with; it appears to be another Colt Police Positive copy.

Picture 57 looks like a Smith & Wesson 38 Safety Hammerless, made in five different variations before 1940, it should be a 5-shot revolver in 38 S&W.
I hope this helps.

Edit to add: Jim posted THREE times while I was still looking through my books for #2 ; the S&W Safety Hammerless was made in both 32 and 38 calibres.

 

[Jim Watson]

The Safety Hammerless appears to me to have the proportions of the .32 caliber version.

I don't have much to show the maker of those obscure copycat revolvers. There seem to have been a lot of them, though; even one pretty fair Triple Lock.

 

[jurupari]

Back again...

It looks I can't keep a quicker pace; on the other side, works on the building in Brazil are being delayed (political reasons), so there's no need to hurry...

Three more pistols to search: one semi-auto (I think) and two revolvers.

I agree on most weapons - particularly pistols - being cheap copies: police - even military police, that is NOT a federal corps, but is State based and payed by, never was over-funded... not to speak of criminals, of course.

 

[SDC]

Image 58 is of a VERY-heavily-used FN-Browning M1900, in 32 Auto.
Image 59 looks like a Rossi Model 13 "Princess", in 22 LR, but it should have the calibre marked on the right side of the barrel.
Image 60 looks like a Webley Mark IV revolver in .455, but so many of these were copied by other manufacturers in other countries that I think we'd need to know the calibre or at least the markings to give you a more definitive answer. Most of these markings were stamped on the left side of the revolver, but I can't see them in the photo.

 

[Jim Watson]

No 58 is a FN (Fabrique Nationale of Belgium) model 1900. It was designed for them by renowned US gun inventor John M. Browning. It was very popular in its day, with over 700,000 made from 1900 until 1911. There were numerous Chinese copies, it was well known in the Orient. Caliber is 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP). This example is very worn.

No 59 is a Rossi "Princess" revolver made by Amadeo Rossi S.A. in S. Leopoldo, Brazil. Caliber is .22 long rifle. It was sold in the USA as the "Ladysmith" because it resembles the old small Smith & Wesson revolver of that (informal) model designation.

No 60 is a copy of a British Webley Mk II (or III, IV, or V). It is most likely of Spanish or Belgian origin, and is a more faithful copy than most such guns. Caliber in the original was .455 Webley but a copy might be in some other caliber suited to the market. The trigger guard is a replacement bent out of strap iron. Several other guns in this series have missing or damaged trigger guards, I don't know what it is about service in Brazil that is hard on that area.

I see that SDC has beaten me to the punch this Sunday morning. But we do agree, which has to be worth something.

 

[jurupari]

A long time away...

... but I'll be able to post during the week end, hoping there's still someone out there...

Cheers everybody!

 

[Jim Watson]

I subscribed to this thread to watch for posts and am still here for whatever help I can provide. I will be absent until Sunday afternoon. SDC will probably provide identification in the meanwhile.

 

[SDC]

Always free to help, and I THINK I've identified one of those oddball submachine guns as well; from Nelson's "Submachine Guns of the World", it appears to be a Spanish-made MX 1935 (sometimes called a "Gollat MX 1935", from the designer), in 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. This is apparently a fairly rare model, as not many were made, and should be marked "Eibar" and "Gollat" on the right side of the receiver.

 

[jurupari]

Back again, and finding good news! Thank you, SDC! Can you please specify the picture in my posts that corresponds to the Spanish-made MX 1935? There is one sporting a barrel jacket with round holes, but the barrel looks way shorter than the one in your picture.

Let's get to today pistols (only five posts remaining, this included!), all revolvers. As for the museum, there isn't yet a date for the opening, it should be some time between the end of this year and the beginning of next one... let's hope for the best.

 

[SDC]

Glad to help I believe your picture 16 is the MX 1935, as it shares the ventilated barrel shroud, the magazine well at 90 degrees, the deep pistol-grip, and the rear receiver cap that slopes down slightly. Your picture 65 appears to be an Italian Bodeo M1889 folding-trigger revolver; these were chambered for the 10.4mm Revolver cartridge, and used through the First and Second World Wars, but were made by five or six different manufacturers in Italy; the manufacturer of that specific revolver should be marked on the frame, ahead of the cylinder. Picture 66 appears to be a Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector of one type or another (if you can get the serial number, it will narrow down the possibilities), but it's in pretty rough shape; the finish is mainly gone, the cylinder latch has been replaced with another home-made piece, and the grips have been replaced with a pair from a Harrington & Richardson revolver that just happened to fit. Picture 67 APPEARS to be an early (1870s or so) Nagant-style revolver, built in either France or Belgium for military use, but I think we'd need some more information on any markings to be able to nail it down past that. Sorry I couldn't be more help on these, but revolvers tend to be a little out of my area of specialty.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have nothing to add on No 65, the Italian Bodeo revolver.

Just from the proportions of the gun, I think No 66 is a Smith and Wesson .32 Hand Ejector, caliber .32 S&W Long. These were made in large quantities from 1903 til 1942 in several "changes" identifiable only by serial number and other markings. The model resumed production after WW II, but with visible differences. I think this a pre-war revolver or possibly a very early post WW II example.

No 67 looks very like the Belgian Model 1883 Nagant noncommissioned officer's revolver, caliber 9x22R mm. (9mm bullet, 22mm cartridge case length, rimmed case for revolver use.) E.C. Ezell's book 'Handguns of the World' states "Revolvers similar to the Nagant were adopted by the Brazilian and Argentine armies..." The extractor rod under the barrel is a replacement of different shape than the factory part.

 

[jurupari]

Last post...

... Back after so long time, just to thank everybody for your help and patience.

Dr De Souza, my Brazilian friend, told me that, due to fund cuts and related cuts to the museum's dimensions, she has already gathered enough information to fill up the museum space she reserved for weapons, and - for now at least - needs not go further.

So, again, thank you Jim, SDC and all others that helped us in this project: the information you provided was precious, and those labels will be a permanent acknowledgment to your kindness. I must add that, personally, it was an experience from which I learned a lot, an enriching one.

As I promised, I'all post a last image, no need to identify it... it's a odd custom made (or Bubba made) pistol, I can't even how (and if) it could fire...

Good bye everybody!

 

[Jim Watson]

That is really a finale. I have never seen the like. I think it is incomplete and incapable of being fired as is.