First post in this Forum

[jurupari]

- Jim, can the Mauser be a 1895 model? they were sold to many South American countries, including Chile and Brazil... I agree that it's almost impossible to go further based on a single - not so good - picture.

-4V50Gary, thanks for intervening... any contribution is welcome.
(A curiosity about your Latin signature: shouldn't it be iura, rather than jura? as far as I know, the letter J did not exist in the Latin alphabet).

-BADSBSNF81: great bibliography, but I'm only trying to help a friend... not directly interested in weapons.

New week, new weapons... here are three new ones.

 

[Jim Watson]

What is the Portugese equivalent of Bubba? That is the USA term for one of low education, few skills, and no social refinement who crudely alters firearms.
All of today's guns have been worked on by Bubba.

The first is a percussion muzzleloading rifle or musket that has been cut down in barrel and stock length. The alteration is so great and the condition so poor - the front of the trigger guard appears to be held on by a nail - that I cannot tell what it might have started out as.

The second is a Comblain which has had the stock foreend shortened to an approximation of a sporting rifle's. I see no rear sight. Perhaps it was meant to be aimed over the hammer or a notch in the receiver. Or perhaps the rifling was reamed smooth to convert it into a shotgun.

The third is any one of a number of single shot shotguns that has had the buttstock cut off and replaced with bent tubing, and a vertical front handgrip added. The intent was to give it the appearance and handling qualities of a submachine gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

Tommaso,

I am confident that the Mauser of post 16 is an 1898 model rather than an 1895.
It has the large receiver ring - the part the barrel screws into is larger than the action behind that area.
It has a thumb notch to help reloading with stripper clips - which hold five rounds to be placed in the internal magazine with one push.

In addition it has small clues like the pistol grip stock, less common on 1895s than 1898s, and the shape of the trigger guard and the trigger location within it are like the 1898.

There were 1898 Mausers sold into Latin America, as well as the many guns traded on the surplus market.

 

[jurupari]

A week out...

Just a quick pass, I'll not be able to post until Friday 18.

Jim, really thanks for your constance...

- The Mauser will be reported as a mod. 1898 all right!
- as for the Bubba (portuguese equivalent should be "caipira") weapons, they're are probably taken from arrested criminals. It's just a miracle you got to know a Comblain in that mess!
... and prepare for the worse ... : when we get to pistol section, there are arms in really, really (repeat many times) bad conditions. And there's a "home made" pistol I'll post just as a curiosity.

 

[Jim Watson]

I will be standing by. Looking up things for you has improved my education.

The good news is that I have more references on pistols than rifles.

 

[jurupari]

Late again...

but here we go. I'll try to keep a quicker pace - if work allows - to finish this search.

Here are three more rifles (by the way, does a clear definition of the terms rifle, musket and carbine - and of the differences among them - exist? in general they are used almost as synonymous).

The first one looks like a sports weapon, can't see a way to load a magazine into it. The second one is a muzzle-loaded rifle, and I think a better identification is practically impossible. The third one ... well, I'll leave it to you... maybe once again Bubba passed by? the barrel looks too short...

As always, thanks for your kindness and... how can I say? ...persistence?...

Tommaso

 

[SDC]

The first one is easy; either a Remington Nylon 66, or its Brazilian copy (the Nylon 66 was made in Brazil for Remington anyway, and Companhia Brasiliera de Cartuchos (CBC) continued making it for domestic sales afterwards); it's in 22LR, and feeds from a magazine tube in the butt of the rifle.
The second one is a muzzle-loading percussion rifle of some sort, but it doesn't appear to be factory-made; there are still areas of the world (the Amazon Basin included) where these sorts of guns are still made and used by backyard gunsmiths.
The third one is a military Mauser carbine, but I'd need to know the markings on the receiver, the calibre, and the barrel length to know which specific one.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agreed, Remington Nylon 66 or the CBC copy and a backwoods blacksmith muzzleloader of some sort.

The third is what is known as a "small ring" Mauser, likely a model of 1893 or 1895. They were used by many South American armies, most in caliber 7mm Mauser also known as 7x57 from the barrel bore diameter and cartridge case length. As SDC says, it is impossible to identify more closely without reading the markings. It looks like the front end of the stock under the muzzle has been hacked on by Bubba the caipira.

Terminology:
A "musket" is a muzzleloading smoothbore military weapon standard in the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries. It may be fired by either flintlock or percussion cap. Or by matchlock for the very old guns.

A "rifle" is any shoulder fired weapon that has a rifled barrel. That is, it has spiral grooves down the length of the barrel bore to spin the bullet for gyroscopic stability giving greater accuracy and range. There are muzzleloading rifles, breechloading single shot rifles like the Comblain, manually operated repeaters like the Mauser, and semiautomatic or fully automatic weapons like the FN-FAL.

A "carbine" is in most cases a shortened rifle. When bolt action rifles were issued by many armies, a service rifle might have a barrel length near 30 inches, while the carbine had an 18 inch barrel but was otherwise similar. Eventually many armies struck a compromise near 24 inches to give a "short rifle" easier to handle than the earlier rifle but without as much disturbing muzzle blast and recoil as the carbine.

The distinction between rifle and carbine is different in sporting arms - a Winchester expert can go on at length about the differences between a carbine and a "short rifle" even though they both have the same length barrel.

 

[jurupari]

Last rifles!

Late once again, but here we are. Last three rifles -and automatic guns: from next post on, only pistols!
Apart for the automatic SMG - should be a Brazil-made INA - the other two guns look heavily Bubba-ed. Is n. 39 a Winchester?

- Jim, two questions. First: what ring does the "small ring" of Mauser refer to?
Second: a "musket" only refers to muzzle-loading weapons? or does it have a more modern meaning? For example, the Comblain rifle was often called, in Portuguese, a "mosquetao Comblain", a Comblain "big musket", or simply a "mosqueto"; same for the Italian mod. 91 rifle, often referred to as "moschetto 91".

Bad news from my Brazilian museologist friend: the budget for the museum was cut of about 30%... hard times...

No need to say - as always- thanks for your patience and kindness

 

[Jim Watson]

In order:

I think no 37 is a .22 semiautomatic rifle but the make and model are unknown to me. The barrel is shorter than would be legal in the USA. Either it was made for a market where that is not the case or it was shortened. At least the front sight was re-installed after shortening the barrel.

No 38 is indeed another example of the Madsen submachine gun, likely made by INA.

No 39 is a model 92 (1892) Winchester lever action rifle or a copy thereof. The Winchester 92 has been copied by Rossi in Brazil and by Garate Anituay in Spain under the El Tigre trademark. El Tigres were traded all over the world, many in Latin America; the Rossi is a more modern reproduction.
Again, the barrel (and the tubular magazine under it) are shorter than usual. While Winchester did manufacture some rifles with 12 to 14 inch barrels, known as the "trapper model", this one may also have been cut down from a standard rifle. If so, Bubba was more consientious than many, he reinstalled the front sight and repositioned the supporting ring connecting the magazine and barrel.

Terminology:

The English dictionary definition of "musket" is a smoothbore muzzleloader.
Use of the term "mosquetao" for the Comblain and "moschetto" for the 1891 Carcano may be a holdover from earlier years or it may be due to usages in the Romance languages, I don't know.

I found that moschetto is in the Italian model designations for both the bolt action 1891 carbines and their many submachine guns. From this I assume that moschetto is the diminutive form because it is used for short shoulder weapons. Perhaps the cognate of the English "musketoon" for a short barrelled muzzleloader.
The long 1891 infantry rifle is the "Fusile Modelo 91". Historically the "fusil" was a long but light muzzleloader carried by officers who wanted a more effective weapon than a sabre and a pistol. The inexpensive muzzleloaders traded to Indians in the North American fur trade were fusils.

"Small ring" (or "large ring") describes the receiver ring of a Mauser rifle. The reciever ring is the strong portion of the action that the barrel screws into. A small ring action, models from 1891 to 1896, had that ring the same diameter as the rest of the receiver. The large ring action of 1898 has a receiver ring larger in diameter than the balance of the action. It is most easily seen as a pronounced step on the left side at the front of the action opening over the magazine.


I am sorry to hear of the budget cut. That will indeed make for hard times for your friend the museologist. I hope we can continue, supporting the identification programme is a pleasure and an honor for me and I hope my amateur contributions are of use.

 

[Hawg]

My two cents on #39 is it's a Winchester model 92 short rifle. The pic is dark but it's obvious it has no barrel band as per rifles. Carbines had a barrel band with the front sight mounted behind it. Most repro carbines have the front sight mounted on the barrel band. Also there no band around the forearm like on a carbine instead it has a long forearm with a nose cap which is why the barrel looks so short. It's actually a 20 inch barrel. Hard to tell from the pic but the barrel should be octagonal. Here's a link to EMF repros which are pretty dang close to the originals. http://www.iar-arms.com/1892-winchester-rifle.htm

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree it is a short rifle, the foreend cap and dovetailed magazine tube ring are visible if you cross your eyes and squint a bit... or enhance the picture. Not to mention the crescent buttplate.

But it is a VERY short rifle. Unless the picture was taken at enough of an angle to introduce a lot of parallax, the barrel is about 12 inches long. Scaling off the computer monitor, the barrel is shorter than the length of pull of the stock. The pull on the '92 in the next room is just under 13 inches.

Winchester used shorter foreends on short rifles, this one has that but it still looks snubnose because of the very short barrel. The EMF copy does not bother with that and looks out of proportion even at 20".

 

[Hawg]

You may be right. I'm thinking the short rifle had the longer rifle forearm and the pic is so dark it's hard to tell.

 

[jurupari]

First pistols..

let's start with something easy... two of the three weapons have labels on them, only need to confirm the labels are exact. The third (no. 42) should be what in Brazil is called a "garrucha", a two-barreled kind of pistol that, I'm told, is still produced by, e.g., Rossi. Any more detailed information is welcome.

About the Winchester: what could be the "useful" range for such a short - or shortened - weapon? 300ft? 150ft?

As for the budget cut, it also means a reduction of displaying space, and only a small portion of the weapons are going to be visible to the public. Just a pity, but pistols are more likely - as they are smaller - to be on display.

Thanks - I'm becoming monotonous - to you, Jim, and to Hawg Heggen.

 

[Hawg]

I'd have said the top pic was a Howdah used for last ditch defense while hunting tigers in India. Maybe the garrucha is a rifled version of same.
I don't know about the second pic but the markings on the Beretta back up the label.

The short barreled Winchester would still have a good 75 yard range.

 

[SDC]

The "garrucha" is similar to a "boot pistol", and they were normally chambered for a short .38/9mm rimmed cartridge, and is (or was) commonly used by South American cowboys. The second picture is of an Argentine-produced revolver that is about as close to an RG without actually being an RG as you can get; a die-cast zinc or pot-metal frame that probably won't last longer than a full box of ammunition. The Beretta is just what its markings say it is, but someone managed to break the trigger-guard off.

 

[Hawg]

I'd say they cut it off for quick access to the trigger.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree with SDC and Hawg on the identity of those pistols.
I will add that the Garrucha is normally a cheap simple pistol and this appears to be an example of the low end of the market. A pistol for someone who cannot afford even a cheap revolver like the next gun.

I agree with Hawg, the trigger guard has probably been intentionally removed from the little Beretta. It is a separate part, not integral with the frame as is common in other guns. It is readily removed. Sometimes that is done to make the gun faster on the draw. It also makes it unsafe to the user and bystanders. That is also a bad idea, because the trigger guard is also the spring for the hinged barrel - the gun is loaded by hinging up the barrel and loading the chamber, then inserting a loaded magazine. So it can be loaded without exerting oneself by pulling back the operating slide against the recoil spring. I don't know if removal of the trigger guard would affect mechanical operation of the gun. Probably not, although care would have to be taken with loading and unloading with no spring tension on the barrel hinge.

This is a small gun of the type once known as a "vest pocket pistol". It is small, light, and convenient to carry, but very low powered in the 6.35 mm (.25 ACP) calibre.

 

[jurupari]

Here we go...

with three more pistols. This time, I'm looking for two confirmations (no. 47 and 52) and sort of a post-mortem... see images. What's the caliber of no. 47?

As for the previous post, really the "Italo GRA" pistol looks more a cast-iron toy than a real weapon.

As for the Winchester rifle of two (my) posts ago, I found so much information about it! too much, indeed... What's the caliber? It looks that were issued three types going from .44 to .32.

 

[SDC]

The first one appears to be a Smith & Wesson 38 Hand Ejector of some sort, but there are people here that are a lot better on S&Ws than I am, so I'll leave that one to them; it looks like someone first removed, and then tried to re-install a trigger-guard on it.
The second one is a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless, and I'm sure someone here can even give you a date of manufacture with the serial number visible.
The third one APPEARS to be a Remington Model 51, in either 32 or 380 Auto, in pretty rough shape, but it should be pretty clearly marked as a Remington on the other side of the frame.