First Home Defense Pistol Advice

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(Though you said most newer pistols are usually drop safe, PT92 and some of my options aren't newer pistols, or did you just mean actual manufacture date of that particular pistol and that they've made changes from older PT92's?).

Sorry that can be a bit confusing. Pistols, with the exception of frame materials, really haven't changed much for some decades. By newer I mean designed in the latter half of the 20th Century, which is pretty much anything you'd find unless you were buying a collector item or an antique.

Someone mentioned a mechanical safety in addition to the FPB? Seems like you're talking about another automatic/involuntary safety mechanism? Mind explaining that?

That's my error, my apologies. All the safeties discussed here are mechanical in that they mechanically stop the gun from firing. I meant a separate manual safety. A firing pin block functions without activation from the user (automatic). A manual safety is triggered by the user. Almost all modern production guns have firing pin blocks (with some 1911s as an exception). Some guns have a manual safety in addition to the firing pin block. For instance the Beretta 92 FS has a firing pin block as well as the manual safety.

Oh and the shotgun, thought about that and I want something that is also better at the range and better for a little distance. I also don't want something that becomes little more than a baseball bat when a loved one is near the baddy.

A shotgun prints much smaller groups than many anticipate, at least generally with the stock choke. It's not like the movies or cartoons. The group size increases with distance, but the pattern starts very small.

Finally I don't want something that terminally deadly. I want something that I can just give a warning arm or leg shot if someone is only holding a knife, but can open up center mass if pulling a gun on me. Legal (not to mention moral) aftermath is a thought here as well.

Any time you discharge a weapon you face the risk of an individual losing his/her life. Shooting to "wound" minimizes this reality. If you discharge a firearm, you aim center mass. That's the standard for civilians as well as police. The idea of shooting to wound is a complete fallacy and opens up a world of legal complications. If you shot someone in the arm or leg just to "wound", then in court the defense could argue that obviously your life wasn't in grave danger and you shouldn't have shot in the first place. You give a command to the intruder to stop (you SHOUT this command; one of the funniest things is taking courses where instructors tell students to do this and people mumble as if they're meek when they're about to shoot a gun). If the intruder doesn't stop and continues to move towards you and you feel your life is in danger, you aim center mass and press that trigger to the rear. You can stop and re-evaluate after each shot or a number of shots, that's up to you. A standard is to say "I shot to stop the threat". Many interpret this as stopping the forward motion of the person attacking you.

Another reason for aiming center mass is that under stress accuracy goes to hell. Even police officers are lucky to maintain 30% of their normal accuracy when in a defensive shooting. If you aim for an arm or leg and miss that might give the intruder time to close distance and assault you. You also run the risk of the missed shot ricocheting off your surroundings or passing through a wall and hurting someone else. Aiming center mass is legally and tactically the safest option.

What kind of condition can I expect on a police trade in though (the site you linked in your personal message was lawmens)? And I mean internal/barrel wear. I don't mind some holster wear.

A common phrase regarding police trade ins is that they are carried a lot and shot a little. Often they're shot for qualification and not much else. They typically have external wear from holsters and from riding around on a duty belt all day, but usually they are just fine internally.

IMHO if choosing between the Taurus and the Beretta I would go Beretta everytime. The Taurus is not a bad gun. One of the better ones they make but you are comparing a low end clone to the actual gun they cloned.

+1. It's a knockoff versus the real thing.

You might want to consider a Revolver. They still sell a lot of them and can be found in a lot of homes. You do not seem to have any experience with handguns or semi autos in general. Do you know how to clear the various jams they may have? Are you willing to spend money to find the ammo which the gun prefers? How about shooting a few hundred rounds to make sure it is reliable? Just a few things to consider. A revolver can be put away and 25 years later, can be taken and used. No worries about limp wristing either. You just load it and press the heavy trigger to shoot.

A revolver was my first handgun, for many of these reasons. However I think some of them are actually misnomers. Revolvers can go out of time and when they jam you're really screwed (much rarer than a semiautomatic jam but much harder to fix). You're typically limited to 6-7 rds. Will that be enough? Maybe, maybe not. If the person you're talking about doesn't shoot much, as it sounds in this example, then they may need greater capacity to get those shots on target or there may be multiple attackers. Regardless of a revolver or semiauto, you want to put a certain amount of ammunition through the handgun to check function. Any firearm if stored properly will be fine in 25 years. Any firearm, even a revolver, if stored improperly will be a paperweight in 25 years. There are many reliable semiautos these days.
 
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I suppose you could say it's fear driven but I wouldn't really. It's a healthy dose of fear with a large dose of caution (which I am always overly cautious, better safe than sorry) even if that means more training required. That part I have no problem with doing or concern over how good I can become. Always been a quick adept learner.

And it's true I've never shot a semi auto pistol and granted it's been at least a decade, but when I was younger I shot a 22 rifle at a range a few times. First time picking it up I shot a 1" group at 50 feet. True this is a far cry from a self defense scenario, but as I said I do intend to find some courses.

As for the center mass requirement as far as legalities see it, that's a shame. I have a medical condition and without going into detail I cannot physically defend myself without incurring serious, perhaps grave damage to myself in the process. I need to be able to defend myself against anyone who would want to, for lack of a better term, beat the crap out of me. Though I wouldn't want to kill them, only warn them to back off and perhaps an arm or leg shot if the drunk doesn't and still comes at me. Also as I said a physical confrontation to me is like a knife fight to a normal healthy person.

Though I get the feeling this may not be the right discussion for this board, even if it is pertinent to my needs.
 
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As for the center mass requirement as far as legalities see it, that's a shame. I have a medical condition and without going into detail I cannot physically defend myself without incurring serious, perhaps grave damage to myself in the process. I need to be able to defend myself against anyone who would want to, for lack of a better term, beat the crap out of me. Though I wouldn't want to kill them, only warn them to back off and perhaps an arm or leg shot if the drunk doesn't and still comes at me. Also as I said a physical confrontation to me is like a knife fight to a normal healthy person.

Verbal commands, the presence of the gun in the first place, those are meant at the warning signs to someone trying to attack you. Wounding shots to the extremities are both often impractical and could potentially lead to you getting hurt or others within or near the dwelling getting hurt, as I explained. If you want to use a firearm in a non-lethal manner I'd honestly suggest maybe getting a taser instead. Even a shot to the leg can cause someone to bleed out if you hit the femoral.
 
You may be right. I immediately discarded the idea of a taser as it is not a good idea in a life or death scenario. But having it (in addition to a firearm) for those less serious but still serious scenarios would be a good idea.

Though I still need a firearm too. So thanks for all the suggestions and keep them coming. I'm writing up a list and will try as many as I can in my hand this weekend. And see how many of those I can rent at a range.
 
You may be right. I immediately discarded the idea of a taser as it is not a good idea in a life or death scenario. But having it (in addition to a firearm) for those less serious but still serious scenarios would be a good idea.

Absolutely. Options are great.
 
Everyone needs professional trainting. Given the special circumstances you describe, I think you should search for an instructor who not only has some experience with teaching persons with physical limitations, but hopefully one who specializes in it.

Also be careful jumping into getting a taser. Cops use them, but they are often backed up by one or more officers holding regular weapons, since tasers often fail to work.
 
I have taught lots of people to shoot. I always recommend revolvers to beginners. A 4" medium framed 357 was what I started with.

You listed some nice pistols. I also prefer sa/da service-style pistols with hammers.

My FiL's Beretta and my Taurus feel pretty much the same in the hand and are similarly accurate. I prefer the controls on the Taurus.

You listed some CZ75-inspired models. My CZ75 is my favorite 9mm of the six I have. The slide riding inside the frame makes racking the slide a bit more annoying, but the accuracy is worth it, imho.

Someone mentioned CDI Sales on Gunbroker. They sell lots of military/police surplus pistols. You can see pictures of the exact pistol you are buying. They typically have CZ75 clones, Berettas, Beretta clones, High Power clones, etc well within your price range. They have an excellent reputation.

My FiL and I have bought maybe a dozen surplus pistols like that. One had been shot a lot (military training), and I was aware of that. The rest were either carried a lot and shot seldom, or carried seldom and shot seldom. Surplus pistols can be a good option for someone who wants a reliable effective pistol for a reasonable price.

Don't worry about the manual safety. The pistols are drop safe anyway. A manual safety is just one more thing to mess up when you are freaking out.
 
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A PT92 is not a bad gun. It is one Taurus does a pretty good job with.

Another great option is the XD9. They all have a grip safety. Some have a thumb safety too.
 
Personally I will never buy another used gun. I'm just that type of person. There's nothing wrong with most of them, but if you think used might bother you than just avoid it. Save yourself the loss you'll take if you sell it.

If I had $400 to spend I would either get a Ruger SR9 or a 4" Taurus 357 Magnum revolver.

The SR9 is striker fired(double action only), but that's not a bad thing. Hammer fired guns are slowly but surely becoming obsolete. The SR9 has a great reputation, good resale value because it's a Ruger and not a no name brand, and it does have a manual safety. The safety is nice, but not necessary. I would highly recommend not having a bullet in the chamber anyways as a new gun owner. Keep a loaded magazine in it, and if you hear something, rack the slide and you're good to go without any safety worries.

The revolver is cooler imo, but of course it has less than 1/2 the capacity. However, it has much more stopping power, it's much less difficult to use, and it's extremely accurate. You can also use 38 Special ammo to practice with until you feel comfortable using 357 Magnum ammo for home defense. Some people talk crap about them, but just remember that they were used exclusively by most civilians and police until the late 80s and early 90s.

If used doesn't bother you, you can get Glock police trade ins for less than $400. I would definitely advise against getting a .40 caliber though, in any gun. They have a ton of recoil and it might turn you off of guns. I don't care what anyone says, I've owned both and the Glock 23(.40 caliber) had much more recoil than the 357 Magnum that I had. Not to say that you can't handle it, but ammo is more expensive, follow up shots are slower, and it's just generally not as pleasant to shoot as a 9mm. Plus if you're married or have a girlfriend, they'll avoid it like the plague. No bueno in my book.

I would not get anything bigger than a 357 Magnum revolver or a 9mm for your first pistol. Both are plenty strong, and don't let anyone tell you different. The 9mm has been killing people successfully for over 100 years.

I'll go against the grain and say that you should get the Taurus 357 Magnum revolver. More fun to shoot, nothing confusing, no field stripping required, and you'll probably be much more accurate with it as a beginner. Just leave it loaded, and if you ever need to use it, aim and pull the trigger. No slide to rack, no safety to fumble with, no magazines to seat, etc. It also has a much more diverse ammo selection than any semi auto. Everything from calm .38 Special target ammo, to holy crap full power 357 Magnum hollow points. Once you get your feet wet and save more money, then buy a CZ-75 SP-01 for $650.

Edit: also, don't buy a gun locally unless you want to get price raped. Some people like to "support their local community," but with a $400 budget, screw that. Buy from cheaperthandirt or budsgunshop. They'll mail it to a local gun dealer, you pay them a transfer fee for handling the paperwork(still usually cheaper), and you're good to go. Check how much they are at Academy, local gunshops, etc. Generally online is the way to go from my experience. Price shop though, or you WILL overpay. Buds and cheaperthandirt are my favorite places.

SR9: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/72439/Ruger+3321+SR9+17+1+9mm+4.14"

Taurus 357 Magnum: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...ts_id/31300/Taurus+65B4+M65+6RD+357MAG38SP+4"

Gun Dealer Locator: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/ffl.php

edit #2: I just saw your above post about physical limitations. In that case, I would also highly recommend a semi automatic 22LR rifle. Most people get a Ruger 10/22($250), but I had a Mossberg 702 that I got for less than $150 out the door from "wally world" and it never let me down. A lot of people sneer at .22s, but ten .22s to the forehead will ruin anyone's day. If you get a Ruger 10/22, you can also get 25 round magazines. Almost zero recoil and devastating if you want it to be. Ammo is harder to find lately, but you can find it online. $50/500 rounds vs $50/200 rounds with a 9mm.

With that being said, if you don't think you can kill a person trying to kill you, I would suggest moving or buying a taser. If you hit someone in the leg they might get out of the hospital and come back with their "home boys" to get revenge. Just some food for thought...

Ruger 10/22: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...ts_id/94972/Ruger+1022+22LR+COLLECTOR+25R+BLK

Mossberg 702: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...99/Mossberg+37001+702+PLINKSTER+22LR++++++SYN

Tasers: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php/keywords/taser/page/1/sort/5d
 
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Hey all, looking to buy my first self defense pistol. I've been broken into before and it's time to get myself a firearm.

I've been searching for awhile now and am having quite a bit of trouble finding all that is available. Would be awesome if there was a site like ammoseek.com but for firearms to narrow down my parameters of all available options :D

Anyway I'm looking for a DA/SA 9mm pistol with a manual safety under $400. Preferably with decocker and not sure if I care about striker or hammer. I'd like to go full size if possible but not bound to it (love the look of the beretta 92's). I'm open to used but would prefer to stay new if possible.

I've come up with a list of possible options but by no means are these the only ones I'm considering (so feel free to list anything that fits my parameters) just the ones I've found that appear to mostly fit my needs.

Beretta 92S (used italian import)
Taurus PT92
Ruger 9E
EAA SAR Arms B6P
Canik C100
Stoegar Cougar
Canik S-120
Taurus PT111 G2
(Some seem difficult to find online such as some of the caniks and stoegar)

I won't carry with it (at least not at first) it'll be a home defense pistol on the nightstand. Though I may wear it holstered around the house to get myself comfortable with it.

Which is why I only feel comfortable with a DA/SA with a manual safety and preferably decocker (uncocked and locked). Something safe from falls as well, which is the reason I wrote earlier that I'm not sure about hammer vs striker is because I want something that's safe if it were ever to fall. Wouldn't the hammer hit the firing pin, even if on safety? Or are there any that avoid that? I think the beretta 92fs does but that's a little out of my price range, and the position of the safety/decocker is awkwardly high being on the slide.

Wasn't on my list but awhile ago I was in love with the Canik TP9v2 after seeing sootch00's video. Amazing quality, price and came with extra goodies like a decent holster. I was upset when I saw it had no safety, just a decocker, otherwise that was one of the best.

The Taurus PT92 seems to fit the bill fairly well but I'm hesitant about the taurus name. Beretta 92S is good overall but used and I dislike the mag release on the butt. The PT111 is good aside from the trigger, though it's a compact with relatively small capacity that I don't like, but man that price... The SAR B6P seems ok aside from the slide being inside the frame, hate that. Cannot find the perfect option. That would probably be the TP9v2 but with a safety, oh well.

Couple final thoughts. Saw some that had a safety but it couldn't be engaged with the hammer/striker down, so need to make sure it can do that. And if I buy a factory new weapon from gunbrokers, cdnn, buds or what have you, the warranty is still good right?


Appreciate anyone who can read through my long posts haha. Thanks!

PS: I intend to get an AR-15 later on as well when funds permit, but I need a pistol to start with.
If you want low price, high capacity, da/sa , manual safety, annd Beretta...go for the Taurus PT99. I'm sure you can find one used with low miles and a few mags for that price tag. I bought mind used 10 years ago,have fired thousands and thousands of rounds through it and not a single hiccup.
 
Of course if I buy from a gun store I would take my tablet with me to check out online prices first and make sure their price+tax isn't way above the online price+FFL fee+shipping.

As for the 22 no thanks, I've used a 22 before and that level of non existent recoil is not necessary, barely feels like any recoil. Maybe for a cheap plinking gun one day, but next up after the pistol is a 556 AR-15 :)

My physical limitation is more of a consequence limitation of cavernous angioma's in my brain, sort of like tumors but not really (benign). Though it causes much pressure, pain and dizziness to varying degrees if I am too active/depending on what I do. So I can shoot and walk around, but running, diving for cover, rolling on the ground (and certainly a fight with someone) could have serious consequences for me. Much better off than I used to be but I want to defend myself to keep it that way :)

I only write that to illustrate my level of ability as it's been mentioned a few times. As long as I'm moving around at a normal calm level I am ok. Though I probably wouldn't want to go any higher than a 556. I'll have to see how I feel with that.

PS: How do I quote? There is no quote button I can find.
 
I wouldn't say hammer fired guns are going obsolete. They are certainly less in vogue, but saying hammer fired pistols are going obsolete and then recommending a revolver is a real head scratcher to me. If you do want a revolver on a budget look for a used Ruger or S&W. Taurus revolvers can be really hit or miss when it comes to function. I also disagree with semiautomatics being too complicated for beginners. Leave it loaded and even if you can't manipulate the slide to reload you'll still have a good twice the capacity of a revolver. There are specifically light recoil target loads and +p+ if you feel so inclined.

Some local stores are pretty fair in their pricing, some aren't. Online isn't a bad option, just remember to factor in shipping costs and transfer fees. Slickguns.com will allow you to search multiple online stores at once.
 
Of course if I buy from a gun store I would take my tablet with me to check out online prices first and make sure their price+tax isn't way above the online price+FFL fee+shipping.
Exactly right. The better LGS are not grossly out of line with online pricing. You might pay $15-20 more (or not) once you factor in all the costs as you just said - and often that is worth the service and the fact that you can inspect it before purchase. Just stay away from Cabelas, Gander, Bass Pro, etc.
 
I wouldn't say hammer fired guns are going obsolete.

I'd say they most definitely are. I recommended a revolver because I think hammerless revolvers are pointless for anything other than deep concealment. What popular hammer fired SEMI AUTOMATIC guns are there? Beretta 92, CZ-75, Sigs, and? Versus Glocks, M&Ps, SRs, XDs, Ruger LC9, Smith & Wesson Shield, along with practically every CCW gun on the market. Most of the hammer fired guns that are still around are very expensive, like my HK 45. A few years ago I would have highly recommended the Ruger P95, but it's been discontinued.

Taurus revolvers can be really hit or miss when it comes to function.

I've had two. One for 30 years, and another for 10 years. Both NEVER had a single problem. I would probably recommend getting a Smith and Wesson or Ruger, but they are much more expensive. If he want's to gamble with a used one, that's up to him. I would much rather have a new Taurus than a used Smith, unless it's mint with a pinned barrel and recessed cylinders. Nicer? Yes. Twice the price nice? Not in my opinion.

I also disagree with semiautomatics being too complicated for beginners. Leave it loaded and even if you can't manipulate the slide to reload you'll still have a good twice the capacity of a revolver. There are specifically light recoil target loads and +p+ if you feel so inclined.

I never said they're too complicated, I said they're more complicated. Most of the time semi automatics are okay, but they are much harder to shoot well than a revolver in single action. You can play with low and high power loads, but it's common knowledge that revolvers tolerate a wider variety of ammo. If you use super low or super high powered ammo in a semi automatic, you will need to start changing springs. Plus, if he has a wife, kids, girlfriend, etc, .38 Special ammo has much less recoil for a beginner or recoil sensitive person that might need to use the gun also.

As far as capacity, if you can't hit a bad guy 15 feet away with six shots, you're probably not going to hit them with the next six either. By that point, they probably would have crapped their pants and ran anyways. I also feel that a 357 Magnum looks more menacing to an intruder than a semi auto.
 
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What popular hammer fired SEMI AUTOMATIC guns are there? Beretta 92, CZ-75, Sigs, and?

That's not enough?

I've had two. One for 30 years, and another for 10 years. Both NEVER had a single problem.

Okay, but two isn't exactly a huge sample.

I would much rather have a new Taurus than a used Smith, unless it's mint with a pinned barrel and recessed cylinders.

I wouldn't. You have your opinion, I have mine. All I was doing was voicing mine from my own experience.

Most of the time semi automatics are okay, but they are much harder to shoot well than a revolver in single action.

I just don't agree with that. If you're thumb cocking each shot that adds another step to the equation and then I really don't think that's any simpler. Also, you could have a hammer fired pistol in SA with a safety that has a nice trigger and even some of the striker fired pistols have decent triggers. I agree that you can definitely get a SA revolver trigger to an excellent state, but out of box they're not always superb. If you're running it in DA then there are a number of pistols with just as good triggers.

If you use super low or super high powered ammo in a semi automatic, you will need to start changing springs.

Depends on the pistol but you're right that this can happen. Still, you shouldn't need to change springs if you use cheap target ammo for practice and +P for defense, or not even +P. My point was there are options in 9mm.

As far as capacity, if you can't hit a bad guy 15 feet away with six shots, you're probably not going to hit them with the next six either.

So if you miss after 6 shots you just toss the gun, put your hands up, and say, "You got me"? What if the hits you make don't stop the threat immediately, or there is more than one assailant? You said:

Just leave it loaded, and if you ever need to use it, aim and pull the trigger.

Without practice, DA trigger pulls with a revolver can be tough for beginners. It's an excellent platform to master trigger control on I agree, but there are challenges.

By that point, they probably would have crapped their pants and ran anyways.

:confused: I don't think missing and hoping the bad guy gets scared and runs away is a good strategy. My comment was that more capacity is a good thing, and coupled with reloads with revolvers being tricky even with good speed loaders, it is a downside to a revolver.
 
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Perhaps 6 rounds would be enough for 1 guy, maybe, provided certain conditions. But why risk it? what if there's 2, 3, 4 guys? I'd rather have as many rounds as possible. Also someone mentioned a statistic in here that even trained LEO's drop to 30% of normal accuracy under duress.

Then there's reloading. Even with a speed loader a magazine is probably faster. Also stashing an extra mag or 2 in your pocket seems far easier than a speed loader.

As for complicated. Sure there are some extra things to learn about how the safety and whatnot works, but once you learn it's pretty simple stuff imo. Maybe if it was someone that never once fired a gun and had to use yours in a panic situation, sure I'd agree with you there. But if you're going to learn your weapon, no issues.
 
Kosh gave some great advice. I'd add that you really need to shoot each one before you go buy one. The grips, their recoil and balance can only be measured by you on the range. Hopefully you can find a range that has a variety of guns to try.
 
Perhaps 6 rounds would be enough for 1 guy, maybe, provided certain conditions. But why risk it? what if there's 2, 3, 4 guys? I'd rather have as many rounds as possible. Also someone mentioned a statistic in here that even trained LEO's drop to 30% of normal accuracy under duress.

Then there's reloading. Even with a speed loader a magazine is probably faster. Also stashing an extra mag or 2 in your pocket seems far easier than a speed loader.

As for complicated. Sure there are some extra things to learn about how the safety and whatnot works, but once you learn it's pretty simple stuff imo. Maybe if it was someone that never once fired a gun and had to use yours in a panic situation, sure I'd agree with you there. But if you're going to learn your weapon, no issues.

I'm on your side here. If you have your heart set on a semi auto, than get a semi auto. I don't know you situation well enough to make a 100% educated recommendation. I'm just trying to cover all your bases and assume that you're 100% new to firearms. The things that I told you are things that I wish people would have told me when I first started. I had to find out the hard way by trial and error.

Anyone that has a lot of experience with firearms will tell you that you should shoot what you can shoot best with. I know for a fact that a beginner will do much better with a 357 Magnum in single action than they will with a 9mm. Fifteen shots doesn't do you any good if you pull a pulp fiction and hit all around them. I'd much rather have a 10/22 with a red dot and 25 CCI Stingers than a 44 Magnum that I won't hit squat with.

Good luck to you.
 
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