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Fired my pistol in SD tonight...
- Thread starter 5whiskey
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2 dogs makes this situation much worse. They were only 1 short of a pack.
I agree with others in that 1 shot may have been enough. However, in your situation sounds like you did need to shoot at least once.
I find it odd that these dogs reacted this way with so many people in your 'pack'.
I think it was a territorial thing and doubt they would have ventured far off their territory but hey... I wasn't there.
My only tactical question is after you fired did you zero in on the closest dog in case you had to take it down? I mean after all, you had to pick one and you can't shoot both at once.
I agree with others in that 1 shot may have been enough. However, in your situation sounds like you did need to shoot at least once.
I find it odd that these dogs reacted this way with so many people in your 'pack'.
I think it was a territorial thing and doubt they would have ventured far off their territory but hey... I wasn't there.
My only tactical question is after you fired did you zero in on the closest dog in case you had to take it down? I mean after all, you had to pick one and you can't shoot both at once.
#18indycolts
Moderator
I would have pulled my gun only if absolutely necessary, and it didn't sound like this was. Maybe a little too quick to pull.
Willing to take a few bite marks? Can't read minds?
Willing to take permanent tendon or ligament damage?
Willing to take upwards of 100 stitches?
Willing to lose muscle tissue?
Willing to lose use of the limb?
Methinks Jacobie hasn't read much on large dog breed attacks. Either that, or he's much braver than I am.
Note: Broke up a fight between a Great Pyrenee and a Pit bull yesterday at the park. I love dogs, and am not unduly afraid of large breeds. Violently aggressive large breeds inspire what I consider a reasonable and necessary amount of fear. In the market for a Vizsla at the moment, and have owned a shepherd/rott mix and a catahoula, and taken care of dogs ranging from labs to American bulldogs. I have a lot of experience at breaking up fights at my local dogpark, too.
However, the injuries I described above have all been suffered in recent history by victims of serious dog maulings. I didn't bother to list fatalities, but although they are rare, they happen, too.
So how much injury are you willing to suffer before a firearm comes into play, exactly?
On reading of minds, as several posters have already noted, it's all in the body language. Some breeds are more vocal than others, so growling isn't necessarily a valid cue, but it isn't hard to read body language if you know dogs in general. The OP indicated he has plenty of dog experience, so I'll assume he can read the cues.
In the OP's case, assuming he is familiar with dogs, and the dogs were threatening, and assuming he had a safe backstop for his warning shots, I have no problem with his actions. The local police may cite him for discharging a firearm within city limits (I know somebody who was hit with a misdemeanor charge in the Orlando area for dispatching a rattlesnake in his yard with an M-1 carbine many years ago), but then again they may not.
One thing is sure, the dogs didn't harm the OP or his group, and neither the dogs nor any third parties were actually harmed.
Willing to take permanent tendon or ligament damage?
Willing to take upwards of 100 stitches?
Willing to lose muscle tissue?
Willing to lose use of the limb?
Methinks Jacobie hasn't read much on large dog breed attacks. Either that, or he's much braver than I am.
Note: Broke up a fight between a Great Pyrenee and a Pit bull yesterday at the park. I love dogs, and am not unduly afraid of large breeds. Violently aggressive large breeds inspire what I consider a reasonable and necessary amount of fear. In the market for a Vizsla at the moment, and have owned a shepherd/rott mix and a catahoula, and taken care of dogs ranging from labs to American bulldogs. I have a lot of experience at breaking up fights at my local dogpark, too.
However, the injuries I described above have all been suffered in recent history by victims of serious dog maulings. I didn't bother to list fatalities, but although they are rare, they happen, too.
So how much injury are you willing to suffer before a firearm comes into play, exactly?
On reading of minds, as several posters have already noted, it's all in the body language. Some breeds are more vocal than others, so growling isn't necessarily a valid cue, but it isn't hard to read body language if you know dogs in general. The OP indicated he has plenty of dog experience, so I'll assume he can read the cues.
In the OP's case, assuming he is familiar with dogs, and the dogs were threatening, and assuming he had a safe backstop for his warning shots, I have no problem with his actions. The local police may cite him for discharging a firearm within city limits (I know somebody who was hit with a misdemeanor charge in the Orlando area for dispatching a rattlesnake in his yard with an M-1 carbine many years ago), but then again they may not.
One thing is sure, the dogs didn't harm the OP or his group, and neither the dogs nor any third parties were actually harmed.
So how much injury are you willing to suffer before a firearm comes into play, exactly?
Enough to justify using deadly force. A dog "bite" is not quite the same as a "mauling" which implies multiple bites, severe lacerations ... and major, perhaps life threatening, damage.
Creature, If my most adored and loved personal pet pit-mix so much as brushes a tooth on anyone not on my property I am fine with her being shot dead...
I am not one to put levels of force on levels of aggressive transgression. Levels are too relative.
In this case I wouldn't fire 3 "warning shots"... heck I likely wouldn't fire any but if I suffered a "nice attack" I may pop one off!
I wouldn't likely remember the pistol for dogs... Step in front of the leader and attack... Something about a human brain over the dog brain leaves me the winner. I love a good scrap with a viscous dog/s...
Brent
I am not one to put levels of force on levels of aggressive transgression. Levels are too relative.
In this case I wouldn't fire 3 "warning shots"... heck I likely wouldn't fire any but if I suffered a "nice attack" I may pop one off!
I wouldn't likely remember the pistol for dogs... Step in front of the leader and attack... Something about a human brain over the dog brain leaves me the winner. I love a good scrap with a viscous dog/s...
Brent
LeopardCurDog
New member
I think you did just fine. BillCA echoes my thoughts, so I won't go into any of that.
My only critique would be fumbling with the safety. All my carry guns have no safety to deal with. They are revolvers, Glocks, or a P89 DC. I'm not saying you need these types of guns, but I'm saying I need mine to all be the same. No safety, or all have the same type of safety.
My only critique would be fumbling with the safety. All my carry guns have no safety to deal with. They are revolvers, Glocks, or a P89 DC. I'm not saying you need these types of guns, but I'm saying I need mine to all be the same. No safety, or all have the same type of safety.
.... you should let the BG stab you at least once, to see if he really wants to hurt you, or if he's just trying to get your attention. Also, you'll have wounds to show the DA...
A dog is not asking for "your money or your life.". Its a dog. Acting like a dog.
In this case, it was a couple of dogs that were marking their territory. I also doubt that these dogs even intended on directly attacking. I would bet that they were intent on merely barking and making a lot of noise...especially since the "offending pack" out numbered them. Besides that, a dog is also is unlikely to cause a lethal mortal wound with a single strike like your knife example.
Dog bite vs knife stab
The odds of serious injury from a single bite are significantly lower than the odds of serious injury from a single stab wound.
On the other hand, the odds of there being only one bite aren't all that good in the case of a charge attack. When those aren't bluffs, they will often as not lead to an attack in earnest.
A single bite is more likely to occur defensively, when you encroach on the dog, or do something that hurts the dog (had experience with this as a kid, with my grandparents' arthritic hound - he wasn't mean at all, but small kids don't know their own strength, and it's easy to cause pain on an arthritic body). The dog will snap in warning, the bite may or may not be that damaging, and the dog will typically retreat.
A dog charge for bluff, to mark territory, doesn't normally leave the territory.
A dog charge, snarling and serious, is often precursor to a mauling, and not a single bite. Having experience with dogs, if I read the indicators that a mauling is in the works, if I have a firearm, it will be used.
The odds of serious injury from a single bite are significantly lower than the odds of serious injury from a single stab wound.
On the other hand, the odds of there being only one bite aren't all that good in the case of a charge attack. When those aren't bluffs, they will often as not lead to an attack in earnest.
A single bite is more likely to occur defensively, when you encroach on the dog, or do something that hurts the dog (had experience with this as a kid, with my grandparents' arthritic hound - he wasn't mean at all, but small kids don't know their own strength, and it's easy to cause pain on an arthritic body). The dog will snap in warning, the bite may or may not be that damaging, and the dog will typically retreat.
A dog charge for bluff, to mark territory, doesn't normally leave the territory.
A dog charge, snarling and serious, is often precursor to a mauling, and not a single bite. Having experience with dogs, if I read the indicators that a mauling is in the works, if I have a firearm, it will be used.
relative pack size
there was a news article yesterday or the day before about a small child being attacked by a pair of dogs, while the child was with others.
Just because your pack is larger, does not mean an aggressive dog will not attack.
Again, I love dogs, and particularly large breed dogs. I am very pro-dog. But that also means I respect what a dog is capable of doing. Downplay the threat at your own risk.
there was a news article yesterday or the day before about a small child being attacked by a pair of dogs, while the child was with others.
Just because your pack is larger, does not mean an aggressive dog will not attack.
Again, I love dogs, and particularly large breed dogs. I am very pro-dog. But that also means I respect what a dog is capable of doing. Downplay the threat at your own risk.
Just because your pack is larger, does not mean an aggressive dog will not attack.
In this case, the two dogs never actually attacked. Whether that was because of the OP shouting at them and his subsequent warning shots fired, we will never know. But one indicator to me that the dogs had no intention of physically attacking was when the OP pointed out that the dogs stopped when he shouted at them. They barked and made it clear that the pedestrians were close to their territory. A pack of dogs will hesitate to attack another pack that is larger in number and physical size.
The OP has yet to say what the property owner said, if anything, about the incident. Are these dogs socially adjusted to their pack and simply "marking" their territory? Or are the dogs known by the owner to be vicious and unpredictable? Doubtful since the owner feels comfortable enough to allow these dogs to be unleashed on an unfenced yard.
One would hope you are correct...
... about owners being sensible enough not to allow vicious dogs to run loose. Where I grew up, most dogs ran loose. Probably wasn't legal, but it was the norm. Semi-rural Maine was pretty dog friendly, at the local level.
However, I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are a lot of idiot dog owners out there. I've run into them in parks, on trails, on streets. They either don't know how to control their dog, or don't care how their dog acts. Some of the worst ones seem to think that an aggressive dog reflects cool points on the owner. Interestingly, most of this last group seem to be in their late teens to early 30's, and favor wife-beater tanks, sleeve style tattoos, and Fast and Furious style cars, at least at the parks I used to frequent in Florida.
In the OP's case, you probably have a point. The "pause" may have indicated the end of a bluff charge. For that matter, the property may have an invisible fence. (Not all dogs running loose are actually running loose, at least not if they don't like electric shocks...)
The warning shots in this case may have been overkill. Then again, given that the OP was trying to ensure the safety of a group that included kids and a grandmother, I won't fault him for erring on the pro-active side, since he seems to have ensured a safe backstop for his warning shots.
... about owners being sensible enough not to allow vicious dogs to run loose. Where I grew up, most dogs ran loose. Probably wasn't legal, but it was the norm. Semi-rural Maine was pretty dog friendly, at the local level.
However, I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are a lot of idiot dog owners out there. I've run into them in parks, on trails, on streets. They either don't know how to control their dog, or don't care how their dog acts. Some of the worst ones seem to think that an aggressive dog reflects cool points on the owner. Interestingly, most of this last group seem to be in their late teens to early 30's, and favor wife-beater tanks, sleeve style tattoos, and Fast and Furious style cars, at least at the parks I used to frequent in Florida.
In the OP's case, you probably have a point. The "pause" may have indicated the end of a bluff charge. For that matter, the property may have an invisible fence. (Not all dogs running loose are actually running loose, at least not if they don't like electric shocks...)
The warning shots in this case may have been overkill. Then again, given that the OP was trying to ensure the safety of a group that included kids and a grandmother, I won't fault him for erring on the pro-active side, since he seems to have ensured a safe backstop for his warning shots.
You know the guy who gets along with the dog everybody else is scared of?
That would be me.
Always has been. Dogs just like me. I guess they can tell I like them. I'm that guy who can pat the dog that never lets strangers near it.
I've also had to take positive control of boxers, rotts, pits, shepherds, dobies, and even a mastiff when dogfights have gone past the dominance stage at the park, primarily because a lot of large dog owners don't seem to have a clue what to do in those instances.
In one case, had to break up a tiff between two boxers that was taking place between the legs of an older man, who was scared half to death. One of the boxers was his dog...
Somehow, I've managed to avoid getting bitten, though I've had a few scratches.
Just saying, I have a lot of experience at observing dog behavior, and dog-human interaction. I have to assume I'm not the only one, so I'll give people some benefit of the doubt when they feel threatened by dogs.
But the more I think about this case, the more I wonder:
How close was the OP's group to the dogs' yard? Did the group move away from the yard at all, giving it a wider berth, when they became aware of the dogs? Did anybody in the group have any past experience with the dogs?
As always, there's info that we don't have, that could make a lot of difference.
But in fairness, when the adrenaline is up (and especially if guarding kids), it may be hard to take note of a lot of pertinent factors.
That would be me.
Always has been. Dogs just like me. I guess they can tell I like them. I'm that guy who can pat the dog that never lets strangers near it.
I've also had to take positive control of boxers, rotts, pits, shepherds, dobies, and even a mastiff when dogfights have gone past the dominance stage at the park, primarily because a lot of large dog owners don't seem to have a clue what to do in those instances.
In one case, had to break up a tiff between two boxers that was taking place between the legs of an older man, who was scared half to death. One of the boxers was his dog...
Somehow, I've managed to avoid getting bitten, though I've had a few scratches.
Just saying, I have a lot of experience at observing dog behavior, and dog-human interaction. I have to assume I'm not the only one, so I'll give people some benefit of the doubt when they feel threatened by dogs.
But the more I think about this case, the more I wonder:
How close was the OP's group to the dogs' yard? Did the group move away from the yard at all, giving it a wider berth, when they became aware of the dogs? Did anybody in the group have any past experience with the dogs?
As always, there's info that we don't have, that could make a lot of difference.
But in fairness, when the adrenaline is up (and especially if guarding kids), it may be hard to take note of a lot of pertinent factors.
I recall jogging unarmed at night along the ocean at Daytona Beach years ago and having TWO dobermans race at me in what I read as "attack mode" only to have them called off as they got dangerously close to me by their apparent owner who was smoking back among the vegetation approximately 75 yards away.
But I digress! I just wanted to point out that in a recent report I reviewed of shots fired by the NYPD during a recent year that JUST UNDER HALF of all shots fired were a combination of accidental discharges PLUS shots fired AT DOGS!
But I digress! I just wanted to point out that in a recent report I reviewed of shots fired by the NYPD during a recent year that JUST UNDER HALF of all shots fired were a combination of accidental discharges PLUS shots fired AT DOGS!
Superhouse 15
New member
Ability: Yep.
Opportunity: Yep.
Jeopardy: Yep.
My only concern is the 3 shots. Might deplete too much of my ammo in a pocket gun, but it worked for you.
Opportunity: Yep.
Jeopardy: Yep.
My only concern is the 3 shots. Might deplete too much of my ammo in a pocket gun, but it worked for you.
Glad it worked out okay. I'm not upset with how the dogs acted or how you reacted. It worked out without anyone getting hurt. I believe you should confront the owner and insist he keep his dogs restrained. Most cities have laws that demand a dog owner to keep his dog under control at all times. Most owners don't realize their 50 pound playful puppy that is good with kids, well behaved, and non-threatening doesn't quite look the same to a person being charged.
I'll start by saying I have grown up with pretty big labs and lab mixes, I love dogs, and the only 2 dogs I was ever really nervous around was a very big very playful boxer who didn't seem to have that natural restraint/boundary when playing, and my grandmothers ****zu who hated me and constantly was nipping my ankles.
Across the street from me is what i would call a 40lb mutt. Very playful, and gets out quite a bit. Has definitely given me a start when I hear her running up behind me but as soon as I turn and see it is her I am not worried. But down the street my wife and I were walking one night and there was a similar sized dog, another mutt i think, that was coming at my wife and i and our 2 dogs VERY aggressively. We hadn't had any issues with dogs before so I hadn't bothered bringing a whoopin stick, so I got my wife behind me with our little 15lb killer terrier (yes she really is way more dangerous than my big dog on a normal basis), made sure i had a good handle on my bigger 60lb lab shephard mix and tried to scare the dog off. I was loud aggressive and swinging a newspaper I had found, not really at the dog but just around trying to be 'bigger'. My big dog was very defensive and we kept slowly backing away staying between the bad dog and my wife. A stranger actually stopped and got out of her car to help me try and outnumber and scare the dog off but the dog wasnt backing down and was snapping so my wife and i started quickly walking away while the stranger kept the dogs attention. When we were far away the lady got back in her car. From that point on I carried an aluminum broom handle, which while it wont stop a dog, im pretty sure it could be painful enough to dissuade, but as soon as I finally get my CHL in the mail I will be carrying.
2 different dogs 2 very different situations. You HAVE to be able to read the body language and decide. Assuming this guy was not close to these dogs' yard he had no reason to assume they were bluffing and totally did the right thing IMO. I would agree that the safety issue needs to probably be worked on, but on the warning shots, what difference does the number taken really matter?? I mean if capacity was an issue that is really the only problem I see with it. The ditch was a legitimately safe backstop so I guess I don't have a problem firing 3 shots. As far as waiting untilt he dog bites?? Please give me a break. I might wait until the dog got very close because I would first be more confident they aren't bluffing and second closer they are the bigger the target.
Across the street from me is what i would call a 40lb mutt. Very playful, and gets out quite a bit. Has definitely given me a start when I hear her running up behind me but as soon as I turn and see it is her I am not worried. But down the street my wife and I were walking one night and there was a similar sized dog, another mutt i think, that was coming at my wife and i and our 2 dogs VERY aggressively. We hadn't had any issues with dogs before so I hadn't bothered bringing a whoopin stick, so I got my wife behind me with our little 15lb killer terrier (yes she really is way more dangerous than my big dog on a normal basis), made sure i had a good handle on my bigger 60lb lab shephard mix and tried to scare the dog off. I was loud aggressive and swinging a newspaper I had found, not really at the dog but just around trying to be 'bigger'. My big dog was very defensive and we kept slowly backing away staying between the bad dog and my wife. A stranger actually stopped and got out of her car to help me try and outnumber and scare the dog off but the dog wasnt backing down and was snapping so my wife and i started quickly walking away while the stranger kept the dogs attention. When we were far away the lady got back in her car. From that point on I carried an aluminum broom handle, which while it wont stop a dog, im pretty sure it could be painful enough to dissuade, but as soon as I finally get my CHL in the mail I will be carrying.
2 different dogs 2 very different situations. You HAVE to be able to read the body language and decide. Assuming this guy was not close to these dogs' yard he had no reason to assume they were bluffing and totally did the right thing IMO. I would agree that the safety issue needs to probably be worked on, but on the warning shots, what difference does the number taken really matter?? I mean if capacity was an issue that is really the only problem I see with it. The ditch was a legitimately safe backstop so I guess I don't have a problem firing 3 shots. As far as waiting untilt he dog bites?? Please give me a break. I might wait until the dog got very close because I would first be more confident they aren't bluffing and second closer they are the bigger the target.
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