Firearms and children under the same roof.

I, and most of my friends and family, grew up with unlocked, and often, loaded guns, readily accessible. None of us ever had an issue because of it. That wasnt all just luck. Most of us were well schooled in what was what, and from a very early age.

NOTHING is a 100% guarantee, and I never said it was. Im simply saying, youre much better off teaching your kids, as part of their ongoing upbringing, than to simply bet the farm, on locking your guns up.

You WILL at some point, forget to lock that safe, THAT, I will guarantee! Who stands a better chance of having a positive outcome then? The well educated, or the ones who were constantly chastised, yet not instructed?

Its ALL part of an ongoing program. As my buddy always says, "you plant potatoes, you get potatoes". If your kid turns up "challenged" in any way, you know where to look for the problem.
 
Which is why I do teach my kids about guns. I'm just not as confident that they will adhere to those lessons like you did. I am sure there were accidental shootings when you were a kid too. They're not a recent phenomenon.

As for leaving gun safe open, it won't happen. I know nobody is perfect. But when it take a gun out of out one in, that is all I am doing. I don't leave them open. And I figure by the time I am old enough to be senile, my kids won't be kids anymore anyway
 
I'd like to chip in another thought. Don't focus on just the guns. There are stories of the things I did as a child still circulating around my family. Both my parents were the first parents of their siblings. So they learned all the lessons the hard way while the others got to learn from the horror stories.

Thankfully I survived.

However, at one point, and realize I'm old enough to have done this long (but not long long) before all the hype about neglect, child endagerment, and social services and the like- but my mother used to tell the story of a doctor reducing her to tears and all but calling her a bad mother for the stuff I got into.

Now with all that build up here's what I did. First, I wandered into the kitchen while me mum was boiling water on the stove. Curiosity, and a poorly turned pan handle meant I was able to reach up and pull the boiling water down onto my hand and arm. That's bandage boxing mitt number one.

During the same week as that emergency room visit I wandered into my dad's workshop where he was working with his scroll saw. I wasn't tall enough yet to see/reach the moving saw blade, but the motor and drive belt underneath was certainly intriguing to my mechanical mind. He saw what was I doing and pulled the plug, but not in time to keep my hand out of the belt and wheel. That ended up being boxing mitt number two on the other hand.

The point I suppose I'm slow walking towards, is you're making it too complicated. You're making the same leap our anti-gun people make. You're making guns "special". That pot of boiling water, scroll saw motor, and any number of other things are just as dangerous to curious kids. You treat all these hazards the same way. Supervise, and educate.

The boiling water probably was a supervision failure. I don't know if I was curious what the pot was, or if I just wanted to know what was for dinner. I'm sure I wanted to know how the scroll saw worked and what the belt and wheels did.

Finally different kids are different. Pax's plan is pretty sound, but I'm sad to say that may not have worked on me as a kid. The Show and Tell of just picking one of them up and holding it probably wouldn't have satisfied my curiosity. I would have wanted to take that sucker apart and see how it worked. I'm sure I would have pointed it at very stupid places while watching or trying to watch parts move.
 
You survived the boiling water and scroll saw, and you were the only person injured. Bullets to the face tend to end in death and sometimes of an innocent not holding the gun

My uncle was a NYC cop. I have vivid memories of going over to his house and waiting until the grown ups went downstairs. Then my 9 year old brother would drag the chair over into the kitchen and he would retrieve my uncles service revolver. Then we would take turns holding it. I was 5. My cousins were 4 and 3. We had all been instructed not to touch it. We knew we would be in big trouble if we were caught but didn't care.

As a gun owner of more than 2 decades, it ****** me off mightily when guns aren't locked up because of some fantasy of needing instant access in a home invasion. The NRA advises owners to lock them up, yet still too many people resist
 
I agree with the education and taking the mystery out of guns, but that is way less than 100% effective. I have 2 boys and one you just had to tell him sternly and he got it when I said he couldn't do something. The other one... well let's just say always challenged authority when he was an adolescent.

Today, you have all kinds of ways to secure your handgun and have it available very quickly if needed. It's just not worth the risk to not have them secured in my opinion.
 
Our kids were your typical boys, no doubt. Into everything, and Id have been disappointed if they didnt constantly push and question authority (we certainly didnt raise them to be the good little PC drones that are encouraged today).

We just never had any issues with them, when it came to guns, knives, etc., and I truly believe thats because they were constantly handling them, constantly having safety drilled into them, basically on a daily basis, from soon after they could walk. By the time they hit kindergarten, it was all old hat, and just matter of fact, daily business, although they were never matter of fact about any of it. Any time a "real" gun was in their hands, they were all business about it. Toy guns were toys, and they knew that as well.

Just out of curiosity here, as I really do think it has a bearing on all of this, how often do your kids handle their guns, your guns, (knives too** for that matter), and how often do they shoot with you? Both our kids started handling their guns as soon as they could hold them, were shooting (live rounds) at 4, and we shot at least once a week, every week, well into their high school years. They're in their 30's now, and we still try to shoot a couple of times a month, as our schedules will allow.

**The reason I included knives here, is they are as much of daily life for a kid as guns are (or at least they were for me, and most of my friends growing up, and for our kids as well, although by then, the PC stuff had started, and care had to be taken when it came to school), and we all got our first knife at a very young age as well, and were always required to have it on us. These days, most adults I know dont carry a knife, which truly amazes me. How can you get through the day without a knife!? (I know, constantly ask to use mine. :rolleyes:)

Do your kids carry a knife of some sort as well, or do you restrict them there too?

As I said before, theres no doubt a good safe should be a part of all this, but by no means, should it be taken as a 100% guarantee of safety, and used in place of constant education. Its the constant and on going embracing and learning about ANYTHING dangerous, that is what will help keep your kids (and yourself as well) safe(r). This whole thing is a living experience, and not just a stern lesson, every now and then, and restrictive access.
 
Firearms are no different than fire, boiling water, power tools, playing in traffic, anything that might need "positive" reinforcement to get the point across. You can accomplish a lot more with positive training, than you can with negative, even though the negative may appear to work. Fear without understanding, doesnt usually work to well in the long run.
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AK is on it.....

and Pax For The Win:

Remember that your ultimate goal as a parent is to work yourself out of a job.

Eventually your children will come across an unlocked gun. When that happens, the only thing between them and a tragedy is the education you have given them. Will it be enough?
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What you should be developing in your children is rational decision making: the ability to make informed, correct decisions and act upon them with a competent skillset. I teach them hands-on in the important things (stuff that can kill them: guns, deep water, driving, etc.).......

Your children will eventually doubt what you tell them, but they will always trust their own experiences.

I'm the father of five (four girls and a boy) ..... and taught them all gun safety, even the one that did not like guns (they are all different, separate individuals, even if you try to raise them the same way): they will grow up and leave someday, for the same reason I taught them to swim: deep water is out there, same as guns are.

They will, even if they do not have their own gun (collection), eventually encounter a gun, possibly in the hands of someone who is not, shall we say, aquainted with safety rules, or even good sense ..... they need to be able to recognize a hazard and if nothing else, avoid it (leave).

You will not always be there, therefore, it is your job, as Pax said, to "work yourself out of your job" ...... not just with guns, but in all things ......
 
When they were small, say starting around 3, I took them target shooting, and around age 6, hunting ..... they understood, having seen with with their own eyes, and heard with their own ears (through earmuffs, of course), that Daddy's guns were powerful, and noisy, and dangerous ...... but were told when they got older, they could learn to manage them ....... at 8 they got a single shot 22 ...... and took 4-H shooting sports with them ....... at 11, they took a hunter safety course, and most of them have gone deer hunting ..... the Eldest is quite good at it .....

The guns are locked up, of course, but all of them can recite the 4 Rules, and will point out infractions by others ....
 
jimbob86 said:
What you should be developing in your children is rational decision making: the ability to make informed, correct decisions and act upon them with a competent skillset.
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Absolutely. But it's also important to remember that the parts of the brain that do rational decision making, along with impulse control, the ability to plan ahead (and to foresee consequences), all take until the early twenties to mature.

Things that are obvious to grownups may not be obvious to children and adolescents, through no fault of their own, no matter how well they're brought up.
 
Telling your kids not to touch the guns is absolutely not the same thing as teaching them about guns and taking the mystery out of handling them. If you wait until your child is entering the teenage years before you even take them to the range or let them touch a gun at home, it is too late to say that you taught your kid about guns. The only thing that makes the Eddie Eagle rules work, is providing a safe outlet for the kids' curiosity about firearms. If you don't do that, you have not educated your kids about gun safety.

Two layers of safety. Teach your kids. Lock up your guns. Suspenders and a belt.

pax
 
Homerboy wrote;
My uncle was a NYC cop. I have vivid memories of going over to his house and waiting until the grown ups went downstairs.
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Fascinating, yet, in a previous thread you stated:

I am the only cop (retired now) in my family. None of my family are cops and only a couple of friends are still active.
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It would lend more credibility to your argument if you did not contradict yourself.
 
As a gun owner of more than 2 decades, it ****** me off mightily when guns aren't locked up because of some fantasy of needing instant access in a home invasion. The NRA advises owners to lock them up, yet still too many people resist
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Further, with the plethora of fast opening safes nowdays, it should not be an issue.
 
Further, with the plethora of fast opening safes nowdays, it should not be an issue.
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If youre worried about home invasion, the last thing you want or need is a safe, quick or not. You'd best be carrying it on you.
 
Keep your guns locked up or otherwise secured, and be sure to instruct your kids in their safe use. There is no reason why a minor needs access to a firearm at all times unless out hunting or shooting with their parents.
Say some kid stole your kids bike. Would you want them to have the temptation of using one of your guns to get it back? Why shouldn't they use it, it works out fine in the movies right?....
 
Quote:
Further, with the plethora of fast opening safes nowdays, it should not be an issue.

If youre worried about home invasion, the last thing you want or need is a safe, quick or not. You'd best be carrying it on you.
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if you're worried about home invasion to the extent you have to be armed at all times you should....move.

This is an interesting discussion. Just two weeks ago we showed the teenage daughter how to open one in case we are not there, along with procedures (get in tub/call 911, the whole routine). However, while I don't trust her fashion choices ;), I trust her judgement.
 
Sorry outcast. I forgot my uncle by marriage who I see once every 5 years for 10 minutes. Now that you mention it, I have a second cousin who was on the job too. I was referring to immediate family and friends.

Great detective work, Columbo
 
zincwarrior wrote;
Further, with the plethora of fast opening safes nowdays, it should not be an issue.
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Certainly keeping your firearms in a safe is not an issue, unless you don't give everyone in the house the ability to access it in a crisis.

Some here advocate that all firearms be locked up and, only "Daddy" or "Mommy" have the key, because kids "cannot be trusted"

My point is this: If you take the time to also Train your kids on proper firearms handling and, safety , the safe becomes less relevant.

Unless you are home 100% of the time your kids are, you leave them totally defenseless. In today's society, the likelihood of school age children being home alone at least some of the time, due to parents working etc. is quite high, (usually in daylight hours between 2 and 5 pm). Would you leave them without the same ability to defend themselves that you, yourself enjoy ?

Additionally, there have been many instances when a firearm, in the hands of a kid, has made all the difference.

Here are just a few;

http://townhall.com/columnists/celiabigelow/2012/10/20/12yearold_defends_herself_with_gun_proves_need_of_2nd_amendment/page/full

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/09/15-Year-Old-Boy-Uses-AR-15-To-Defend-House-Against-Burglars

http://www.nranews.com/cam/video/teenage-boy-defends-himself-with-a-shotgun/list/cc-sc-the-armed-citizen-file


In one instance, the kid disarmed the BG and, used his own gun against him !

http://www.westernjournalism.com/10-yr-old-boy-defends-home-against-burglars-with-their-gun/

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-23/phoenix-teen-shoots-intruder/55782484/1

These are, but a few examples. Could this also go horribly wrong ? Absolutely, the possibility exists, just as it can for an Adult to have access to a firearm however, that all goes back to the time, and effort you are willing to invest in Training your kids on the proper handling of firearms.

To simply hide your head in the sand and pretend that your kids are "safe" and the likelihood of a BG showing up at your door when you are not home is "small", is foolish, and naive, IMO.

Just as it is your responsibility, as a parent, to protect your kids from danger, it is also your responsibility to educate them about possible dangers and, how to protect themselves.
 
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I grew up on a small farm. My dad kept a 22 at the ready for emergencies. His boot helped me not touch that or anything else that I wasn't suppose to touch.
 
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