Fingers on the trigger

DT Guy said:
...And there are photos throughout that incident that show agents in 'high ready' whether engaged or not;...
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You chose the photos to show, and we can only go by the photos you did show. Photos you chose not to show are irrelevant.

DT Guy said:
...It was not really indeterminate age, either; Reagan was only shot the once...
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Yes, but you didn't identify the event, although we might have guessed. But you have no business expecting us to guess.

And in any case, Reagan was shot in 1981 -- some 33 years ago. A lot has changed in handgun doctrine in 33 years.

We're discussing current best practices.
 
dayman said:
I don't have it in front of me, so I'll have to double check when I get home, but doesn't Mas Ayoob suggest high ready as preferable to low ready in Stressfire v.1?...
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Again, Stressfire, v. 1 dates form the early 1980s.

When I took LFI-1 in 2008, we worked exclusively with low-ready. When I was an assistant instructor a for MAG-40 class in 2010, we also used only low-ready.
 
Guys, get over yourselves

There is NO SUCH THING as best ready. They all have a purpose.

If im moving thru a dirt floored house in A-stan i may want my mzl to point down. If its a concrete floored warehouse stateside down might not be the best choice.

Solo bad guy in an empty parking lot... My mzl my point pretty much straight at him. Crowded restaurant after a robbery goes bad, SUL might be the best choice.

Anybody that says this is the only way to do it.... 1 is a crappy instructor 2 prob doesnt have much real world exp

I dislike the phrase but it applies here....TOOL IN THE TOOL BAG!!!!
 
It may be from the 80's but "stress fire" still a pretty widely respected book, and represents well thought out and researched ideas. It's also got to be one of the most widely read and well known "how to shoot" books out there.

He may have changed his mind since then but he did make a pretty convincing argument for high ready, and apparently hasn't felt the need to redact it out of current editions.

In not claiming that high ready is in vogue right now (or that it's the best), but it's not as if it's an unheard of concept.
 
The larger question, Frank, is 33 years later, what would YOU suggest those agents should be using in that situation?

And apologies for not identifying the incident; I considered those photos iconic, in the same way the Kennedy assassination photos are, and forgot some might not recognize them.


High ready has a place; I believe those photos, regardless of age, show one prime example of such a place.

Larry
 
I haven't been in many firefights with a pistol. The times I was involved in such an event, I used the finger aside the trigger out of the trigger guard on one event, and finger on the trigger in another. The situation dictates which to use. There are no hard and fast rules in a gun fight other than 'don't lose.'
 
DT Guy said:
The larger question, Frank, is 33 years later, what would YOU suggest those agents should be using in that situation? ...
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In that sort of situation it's not a matter of a ready position. It's a matter of keeping the gun out of the way and under control.
 
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DT Guy said:
So why not train to prepare for that?...
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Absolutely. But we'd be training for moving among and with people in a dynamic, close contact, evolving situation. One doesn't train for that of the square range with live ammunition.

One trains for it in a group with inert "blue" training guns.
 
The Army Way

I'm responding to the OP's concern about military training that just doesn't seem right. It doesn't have to be right. When I arrived in basic training in 1966, the drill sergeant made it extremely clear to this smart-ass recruit that "there's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way! You will do everything the Army way! I will tell you what that is!" Sort of stuck with me.
 
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I think that there are "best practices" in training. These should give shooters the skills to successfully navigate a wide variety of situations while being efficient, fast, accurate, and safe. There are lots of "good" answers, while real life may not have just one "best" answer.

We could all train to fight with Russian back-flip hatchet attacks, but that isn't appropriate (efficient, fast, accurate, and safe) compared to other techniques, for most situations!

As for military training, there are times when you have to go with the flow. If it works adequately, you may have to just shut up and color. If you are sure their is a better way, and can do it correctly, then do so when the opportunity presents itself. That said, if someone advocates a dangerous technique without appropriate training or safeguards, SPEAK UP.
 
At the risk of dredging up an older thread:

I think finger off the trigger IS the best practice for SA or Glock style (mid weight, short pull) triggers.


That said should heavy DA triggers be subject to the same rules?


Obviously, no one should be running around with a finger on the trigger but while in a more advanced threat level where having to fire may be imminent, I'm not sure whether it is more unsafe to have a ready finger in position on a 12# trigger with close to 1" of travel or trying to quickly get an accurate shot at 15yds starting with an untensioned finger.

Not being rhetorical, I really am unsure and don't yet have a strong position yet. I do think a heavy, long DA first pull is a different beast than shorter/lighter triggers. And I wonder how many shooter will pull the first shot trying to snap into a heavy DA trigger?
 
Willie D said:
...That said should heavy DA triggers be subject to the same rules?...
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Yes:

  1. We build good habits by doing things the same way all the time.

  2. Ergonomically guns are designed so the finger will fall naturally on the trigger. That's how guns work. So initially developing the consistent habit of keeping the finger off the trigger and indexed along the frame requires conscious thought and conditioning. Ultimately it will become a habit, but it needs to be done consistently to reliably become a habit.

  3. See this post for a discussion of interlimb interaction.
 
I agree with both Frank and Willie. The initial draw should always be finger outside the trigger guard. However as the threat increases, it makes sense to put the finger on the trigger on double action revolvers.
 
JimPage said:
....However as the threat increases, it makes sense to put the finger on the trigger on double action revolvers.
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Not really. In a high stress situation a 12 pound trigger pull will, under the influence of adrenalin, feel like nothing. The risk of an unintended discharge remains very real. So if you are not on target about to shoot or shooting, the finger is off the trigger and indexed on the frame.

See this thread about what can happen when the finger finds the trigger at the wrong time.
 
However as the threat increases, it makes sense to put the finger on the trigger on double action revolvers.
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That's what I'm thinking: maybe for heavy Double Action pulls there should be a Red Threat Level "Now Firing" and and Orange Threat Level "Pretty damn sure I might need to fire."

I am not unconcerned with an accidental discharge but again I worry that a lot of shooters (myself definitely included) are going to miss a shot at miss-able distances if we try to go from zero tension on the trigger to quickly yanking a 12# trigger with a good deal of travel.


Frank: I read that link earlier and it is certainly chilling. That said, my shotguns have less than 6# pulls that are relatively short. I would not think of leaving a finger on the trigger in that case and also I would worry less about missing because in theory my support hand and shoulder are doing the lion's share of my aiming for me.


Using the OP's M9 or something with a similar heavy 1st shot DA pull like a CZ75, Sig, Mak, 5906, PPK, etc; a lot of people have a hard time getting a quality shot at 50'+. For myself, trying to quickly pull the DA trigger is likely to torque the gun and miss. Maybe you could call this a training issue or the failings of a particular design but I also wonder if maybe there should be some acknowledgement that rules for one design (SA) might work less well on the DA platform.
 
Willie D said:
...Maybe you could call this a training issue or the failings of a particular design but I also wonder if maybe there should be some acknowledgement that rules for one design (SA) might work less well on the DA platform.
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Yes, I consider it a training and practice issue.

Through all my training deviating from the consistent application of Rule 3 for different types of guns was never considered an option. Through my classes at Gunsite and elsewhere folks using double action semi-automatics or revolvers adhered to the same trigger finger discipline as those of us using 1911s or Glocks.

I wouldn't consider different trigger finger management for different types of guns to be an option. I would never suggest or allow anything of the sort in any of the classes I help teach.

If you can't manage the double action trigger on your chosen gun well enough to be confident keeping your finger off the trigger until you're on target and going to shoot or shooting, perhaps that gun is not a good choice for you.

Willie D said:
...maybe for heavy Double Action pulls there should be a Red Threat Level "Now Firing" and and Orange Threat Level "Pretty damn sure I might need to fire."...
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And believing that is consistently possible or worthwhile is fantasy. Proper trigger finger discipline requires consistency. If you believe that you can reliably distinguish when it's okay to have your finger on the trigger other than when you are on target and about to shoot or shooting, it's a sure thing that you will have your finger on the trigger at a wrong time. And that is how people have unintended discharges.
 
The DA trigger is not a guarantee against an ND with trigger on the finger. This has been test by ergonomic folks. Startles, bumps, sympathetic in concert with a grip squeeze in the other hand can fire an DA trigger of most semis.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
The DA trigger is not a guarantee against an ND with trigger on the finger. This has been test by ergonomic folks. Startles, bumps, sympathetic in concert with a grip squeeze in the other hand can fire an DA trigger of most semis.
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Another point to consider is that repetition results in habit. So how one trains to manage his trigger finger with a double action revolver will carryover when he handles a single action or striker fired pistol, or a rifle, or a shotgun.
 
Not getting quality hits while running a heavy double action trigger is a training issue. A lot of people would rather get pistol with a nicer trigger than deal with that.

If you get to pick your pistol, selecting one with a nice trigger may be wise. If you can't pick your pistol, training enough to get past a longer, heavy pull should be one of your priorities.
 
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