Fingers on the trigger
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Simple, as long as we're talking about handguns. One doesn't use a "high ready" with a handgun.raimius said:
In something on the order of 300+ hours of handgun training, I've never seen a "high ready" taught or used.
THINK concept; true story, Fort Clayton....
I like the US Army TRADOC's THINK policy. It's simple & can prevent mishaps.
In the early 1990s, I heard of a enlisted MP in a National Guard unit who discharged his M9 9mmNATO into a arms room clearing barrel. He was so startled by the loud BANG that he fired several more times into the barrel!
A officer near the scene yelled out for someone to take the M9 away from him.
This was in the 92nd MP BN arms room, Fort Clayton, RP(Republic of Panama).
I like the US Army TRADOC's THINK policy. It's simple & can prevent mishaps.
In the early 1990s, I heard of a enlisted MP in a National Guard unit who discharged his M9 9mmNATO into a arms room clearing barrel. He was so startled by the loud BANG that he fired several more times into the barrel!
A officer near the scene yelled out for someone to take the M9 away from him.
This was in the 92nd MP BN arms room, Fort Clayton, RP(Republic of Panama).
Theohazard
New member
I also have NEVER seen anyone who knew what they were doing use a "high ready" position with a handgun. You shouldn't point the gun above the horizontal unless you're shooting uphill.Frank Ettin said:
Model12Win
Moderator
Hmmmm....
I was just thinking about this issue today when practicing my draw with a revolver. I noticed instinctively that as I presented and made a proper sight picture on the "target" (myself standing in front of a mirror) that my finger fell alongside the frame of the gun. If I had needed to make the shot, I would have had to move my finger down into the trigger guard to press the trigger which could have cost valuable time.
I believe I may start practicing with my finger inside the trigger guard, perhaps with pressure towards the front of the guard and not against the trigger, but still inside the guard if a quick trigger pull is needed.
Is this a bad idea?
I was just thinking about this issue today when practicing my draw with a revolver. I noticed instinctively that as I presented and made a proper sight picture on the "target" (myself standing in front of a mirror) that my finger fell alongside the frame of the gun. If I had needed to make the shot, I would have had to move my finger down into the trigger guard to press the trigger which could have cost valuable time.
I believe I may start practicing with my finger inside the trigger guard, perhaps with pressure towards the front of the guard and not against the trigger, but still inside the guard if a quick trigger pull is needed.
Is this a bad idea?
Training is diffderent, for different situations
Keeping your finger off the trigger always works, no matter what gun you are using. It's that simple. No matter what the situation, no matter what happens, if your finger is not on the trigger (or in the trigger guard) you will not pull the trigger unintentionally.
And, while there is a lot of overlap, there are differences between training in safe gun handling and training for a gunfight.
I do get a bit of amusement from people talking about the "4 rules" or "Coopers 4 rules" etc., as if they were the only rules, or the only "important" ones. The aren't. There are a lot more than just 4. Cooper took the four that were most important to safety and what he was trying to teach, and gave them to us in an easily remembered package.
Go take a hunter safety course, you'll find the "rest" of the rules for safe gun handling. All good, and sound rules, but, not always applicable to a gun fight.
For instance, "unload your gun before crossing a fence", is sound advice, and safe, but may not be such a good idea when a gunfight is imminent.
As to the full flap holster,
Americans have an almost ingrained belief that a "proper" holster is one that allows the gun to be drawn (and fired) in the easiest, most expeditious manner possible/practical. No one else does (unless they have adopted the American attitude). Even our GI flap holster works faster than other nations versions. Germany went through both world wars with full flap holsters that buckled shut. We had a holster, they had a luggage case.
Certainly there are better holsters for speed of the draw, and there are lots of circumstances where that is the paramount consideration. But there is nothing else that both allows you to have the gun on you, AND protects the gun from the elements as well as the flap holster.
A gunfight is the most serious thing you do with a handgun, clearly. But there are other things, that I consider "serious" (meaning not frivolous), as well. While it is good to be able to focus on a tree (and perhaps vitally so) there is still the rest of the forest out there.
Keeping your finger off the trigger always works, no matter what gun you are using. It's that simple. No matter what the situation, no matter what happens, if your finger is not on the trigger (or in the trigger guard) you will not pull the trigger unintentionally.
And, while there is a lot of overlap, there are differences between training in safe gun handling and training for a gunfight.
I do get a bit of amusement from people talking about the "4 rules" or "Coopers 4 rules" etc., as if they were the only rules, or the only "important" ones. The aren't. There are a lot more than just 4. Cooper took the four that were most important to safety and what he was trying to teach, and gave them to us in an easily remembered package.
Go take a hunter safety course, you'll find the "rest" of the rules for safe gun handling. All good, and sound rules, but, not always applicable to a gun fight.
For instance, "unload your gun before crossing a fence", is sound advice, and safe, but may not be such a good idea when a gunfight is imminent.
As to the full flap holster,
Americans have an almost ingrained belief that a "proper" holster is one that allows the gun to be drawn (and fired) in the easiest, most expeditious manner possible/practical. No one else does (unless they have adopted the American attitude). Even our GI flap holster works faster than other nations versions. Germany went through both world wars with full flap holsters that buckled shut. We had a holster, they had a luggage case.
Certainly there are better holsters for speed of the draw, and there are lots of circumstances where that is the paramount consideration. But there is nothing else that both allows you to have the gun on you, AND protects the gun from the elements as well as the flap holster.
A gunfight is the most serious thing you do with a handgun, clearly. But there are other things, that I consider "serious" (meaning not frivolous), as well. While it is good to be able to focus on a tree (and perhaps vitally so) there is still the rest of the forest out there.
As others have asked I would like to know what FM states that putting your finger on the trigger before your'e ready to fire is proper procedure.
I am no operator but have been lucky enough to attend some pretty high speed weapons training taught by current and former operators and not one of them ever instructed us to do this. In fact most taught the principal of indexing. Indexing is when you point your trigger finger along side your weapon at the intended target. This speeds up target acquisition and aids in getting your natural point of aim on target saving you much more time than the milliseconds it takes to get your finger on the trigger.
You will most likely never go into a fire fight alone unless your entire team has fallen, the last thing you want to do is shoot one of your own (fratricide) because of poor weapons handling/instruction.
I am no operator but have been lucky enough to attend some pretty high speed weapons training taught by current and former operators and not one of them ever instructed us to do this. In fact most taught the principal of indexing. Indexing is when you point your trigger finger along side your weapon at the intended target. This speeds up target acquisition and aids in getting your natural point of aim on target saving you much more time than the milliseconds it takes to get your finger on the trigger.
You will most likely never go into a fire fight alone unless your entire team has fallen, the last thing you want to do is shoot one of your own (fratricide) because of poor weapons handling/instruction.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Yes it is a bad idea.Model12Win said:
There's a good reason to prefer the finger indexed along the frame rather than across or in the trigger guard. That's the phenomenon of interlimb interaction (or sympathetic squeeze response). This was discussed at all the classes I've taken at Gunsite (and see here, here, here and here).
Briefly, it's part of the startle response. If one is surprised or startled, especially under stress, he is likely to squeeze his hands, including the trigger finger. It's a reflex, automatic and involuntary. If one's trigger finger is along side or in the trigger guard, instead of indexed along the frame, when startled or surprised, he is more likely to allow it to slip onto the trigger and press the trigger.
Recommend we move this rabbit hole here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541544
I think we may have been talking past each other. I wasn't talking about the Charlie's Angels "High Ready" as defined in the linked thread, which I think is what you are talking about. I meant the 45 degree "Modified High Ready." Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
I stand by my comments.raimius said:
The article you linked to in the thread you linked to above is the first I've ever seen of any sort of a "high ready" suggested for a handgun. I have no information on the credentials of the author of that article, Richard Nance.
In any case, I see no need of or purpose for that ready position and it has not been, as far as I know, actually adopted in any serious handgun training doctrine.
armsmaster270
New member
I was a City Cop from 68-86 in the late revolver years we were issued the Bianchi Judge front break holster with a covered trigger they were fast and your finger landed right by the trigger on the draw. just after I retired the Dept transitioned to the Sig 9mm.
You say this as if it were a bad thing, and because no one else does it, it must be so .....
Since the principal advantage of a handgun is that it is handier than a long gun (at the expense of being relatively low powered), I see no reason to tote one around in a luggage case. Either it is immediately accessable, or it just dead weight.
I've read somewhere that most 20th century European militaries saw the pistol as a sort of badge of rank, much like the sword became after the advent of the rifled musket ..... the Americans, OTH ...... we wanted a handgun that would drop a horse, or a crazed Moro, and RIGHT NOW.
Are guns and ammunition now so fragile that they must be protected from "the elements" ..... moreso than their bearer? I would hazard a guess that the flap holsters were a holdover from C&B black powder days, when one really had to "keep your powder dry" ..... once the self contained smokeless cartridge was perfected ..... not so necessary any longer, but militaries have greater organizational inertia than any other group, I think ....... nearly always gearing up to fight the last war......
"Organizational Inertia": that does explain a great many things, including why the NRA and various Hunter Ed programs still try and teach "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety" to 10 year old kids, when the vast majority of people can remember no more than 5 related things in a group.......
Jeff Cooper codified the FOUR RULES going on 1/2 a century ago ...... everything you need, nothing you don't ..... yet there are always folk that think they have a better way ...... and because Jelly Bryce or Sykes and Whoever advocated having your finger on the trigger that makes it a good idea(FWIW, they advocated point shooting, as well) ..... do you see anyone today able to use their methods and come anywhere close to the times and number of hits attained by even an average IDPA participant?
Actually, I think it puts us ahead of the curve...
Here's where we get into attitudes and opinions about what's most important, what's right for the situation, and what the situations are. What things you give up, to get other things, and personal, vs. institutional doctrine.
There's a world of difference between what would be proper wear for dealing with the possible mugger coming out of the next alley and what's best for living in the field for weeks at a time, where the risk of needing the pistol instantly are lower.
Quite true, particularly for officers above platoon/company level. Another place America has been ahead of the curve for a long time, our pistol was also a pretty good defensive tool. Being able to drop a horse was one of the original requirements, you know...
Anybody that thinks the "high ready" is not taught AND used in the "real world" has no experience with the NSW guys.
Im no Ninja, but ive been around, seen and done some stuff in a lot of the worlds hotspot. All of the readies have a place. The ability to flow from one to another as the SITUATION dictates is one of the marks of a professional.
When i started in the contracting game i came from a pretty regimented school of thought. With an open mind i learned a bunch from some of the guys i worked with... Taught a little back as well
An open mind is the ticket
Im no Ninja, but ive been around, seen and done some stuff in a lot of the worlds hotspot. All of the readies have a place. The ability to flow from one to another as the SITUATION dictates is one of the marks of a professional.
When i started in the contracting game i came from a pretty regimented school of thought. With an open mind i learned a bunch from some of the guys i worked with... Taught a little back as well
An open mind is the ticket
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Your so called "evidence" photos show (1) an agent with what appears to be a long gun (a different matter entirely); and (2) an agent in a melee grappling (thus perhaps an improvised position). They are also of indeterminate age and provenance and are therefore meaningless.DT Guy said:
However, I did just yesterday see this video in which the late Paul Gomez briefly discusses a sort of modified high ready (similar to that described by the OP in post 50). That is the first I've seen of a modern instructor with established credibility showing that sort of a ready position.
The 'long gun' is being held with one hand and has no stock deployed; pretty much the definition of a 'handgun', isn't that?
And there are photos throughout that incident that show agents in 'high ready' whether engaged or not; they stood point over Pres. Reagan in high ready.
It was not really indeterminate age, either; Reagan was only shot the once.
Larry
And there are photos throughout that incident that show agents in 'high ready' whether engaged or not; they stood point over Pres. Reagan in high ready.
It was not really indeterminate age, either; Reagan was only shot the once.
Larry
I don't have it in front of me, so I'll have to double check when I get home, but doesn't Mas Ayoob suggest high ready as preferable to low ready in Stressfire v.1?
It's easier to maintain control of the weapon and force it down onto target in the event of a struggle.
Maybe what I'm thinking of isn't high ready, but unless I'm misremembering his illustrations definitely have the gun pointed above the line of the target.
It's easier to maintain control of the weapon and force it down onto target in the event of a struggle.
Maybe what I'm thinking of isn't high ready, but unless I'm misremembering his illustrations definitely have the gun pointed above the line of the target.