FFL who abused your held gun. What to do?

"he said {hes owned this shop since the early 80's} that if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!!!"

Wow.

Your FFL needs to take a remedial course in how not to violate the law and get caught up in a BATFE hootenanny because he is 100% WRONG.

If a dealer receives a firearm from any source with the intention of transferring it, either via sale or simple pass-through transfer, he MUST, BY LAW, log the gun in his bound book.
 
Lots of people on here know the laws and rules better than me, and I understand that what is fair and what is legal aren't always the same, but if the seller dictated what receiving FFL I used I would feel like the seller was at least partly responsible for their performance and the resulting damage to the gun. I wouldn't have any problem talking to the seller about the results of the seller's decision to make me use a different FFL than the one I have learned to trust.
 
riflemen said:
...The gun shops should not open your package, with the exception of the above incident that I described I have NEVER had another shop open one of my packages, I open them hand them the FFL and Paperwork, read them the serial number, sign the ppw and leave with my gun...
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riflemen said:
...ANYWAY, like I said, opening is not the "norm", the shops around here DO NOT do it, it is very rare, .... But besides that our guys wont open them, I deal with multiple shops...
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Do you realize that you're suggesting that those shops are likely violating federal law, and they they could lose their licenses for doing what you're saying they're doing? See 27 CFR 478.125(e), emphasis added:
(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.

Except as provided in § 478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. ... The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....
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With regard to the exceptions noted, 27 CFR 478.124a applies only to an FFL who handles not more than 50 transfers in a 12 month period. And 27 CFR 478.125(g) applies when an FFL has a commercial record of the firearm received and that record includes all the information required to be maintained in the bound book.

A commercial record could be an invoice, a packing list, a bill of lading, or something similar, but to allow the delay of entry of acquisition, that record must include:
...the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....
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Therefore, any FFL who handles more than 50 firearm transactions in a year who receives a package containing a gun, if the only information apparent without opening that package is:
riflemen said:
to: ABC Gun Shoppe'
Attention:YOUR NAME
123 ABC Way
NY, NY 10458
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must open the package no later than the close of the business day next following receipt in order to be able to comply with 27 CFR 478.125.
 
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Simply put, if you don't trust your dealer enough to open your gun and do his due dilligence in logging it, why are you even shipping your gun to him in the first place?
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Because while I know and trust some FFLs on a personal level in my area, I can't account for the behavior of their potentially knuckleheaded employees -- and, not being omnipresent babysitters, neither can they.

Thus, I appreciate an FFL with a policy that transferees' packages will remain unopened for as long as legally possible so that I can get to the shop and open them myself. Since I don't let my guns lie around his shop, that invariably means that the packages are unopened when I come to pick up the guns.

I buy plenty of guns that I will shoot, but I also buy unfired collectibles that have never had their cylinder turned or their slide racked, and I very reasonably do not want some nitwit employee of his knocking hundreds of dollars or more of value off of what I'm buying because he can't keep his hands off of someone else's property when he's not under direct supervision and observation.
 
"Because while I know and trust some FFLs on a personal level in my area, I can't account for the behavior of their potentially knuckleheaded employees -- and, not being omnipresent babysitters, neither can they. "

On the contrary. It's the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. If employees require babysitting, then they aren't responsible enough to work in that shop.

If your FFL isn't setting expectations and parameters for their employees, including the handling of customer firearms, I again ask, why are you trusting that shop with your business?


Oh, and I wish I had a dime for every time I called a customer whose firearm had arrived at the shop and was told "I'll be there this evening/tomorrow/X day" only to have them come in days or even weeks later.

If there's one thing I learned while working at gunshops, it's that about 95% of customers never make it in when they say they're going to.
 
On the contrary. It's the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. If employees require babysitting, then they aren't responsible enough to work in that shop.

If your FFL isn't setting expectations and parameters for their employees, including the handling of customer firearms, I again ask, why are you trusting that shop with your business?
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I never said that it wasn't the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. What I'm saying is that it's not possible to guarantee anyone else's behavior, even if you subjected them to assiduous evaluation prior to hiring them.

Have you ever had to fire someone? More to the point, have you ever had to fire someone who seemed like a very responsible, capable candidate for employment after a thorough evaluation? That is my point. People are not robots. They behave in ways that defy prediction. And I'm not interested in absorbing the potential costs that may flow from that unpredictability. To the extent that there are measures in place to help me avoid absorbing such costs in this context -- such as a policy that transferees' packages will remain unopened for as long as legally possible -- I will be more inclined to conduct transfers through that particular shop.

Oh, and I wish I had a dime for every time I called a customer whose firearm had arrived at the shop and was told "I'll be there this evening/tomorrow/X day" only to have them come in days or even weeks later.

If there's one thing I learned while working at gunshops, it's that about 95% of customers never make it in when they say they're going to.
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Well, that's not me, and I never argued that those people should get any special treatment. I said I appreciate a shop that will leave the package unopened as long as legally possible (and logistically reasonable). If they need to open the package near the end of the next business day to comply with their obligations, I never said I had any problem with that. If the transferee can't make it in promptly, that's obviously the transferee's problem.
 
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Minor thread hijack...

Frank Ettin said:
With regard to the exceptions noted, 27 CFR 478.124a applies only to an FFL who handles not more than 50 transfers in a 12 month period.
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FWIW although this is a bit of a sidetrack... the ATF recently voided 27 CFR 478.124a effective October 3, 2014, in order to eliminate the "Low Volume" Form 4473(LV), simply because almost no FFL's were using it.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-08-04/pdf/2014-18392.pdf

I only stumbled upon this because I was curious what a 4473(LV) looked like! :)
 
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You can tell the people in this thread who have never worked in a gun shop and have never had to face scrutiny from the ATF. You can also tell the people who have never had to run a small business and cut costs by streamlining certain services to be as efficient as possible.

We get guns shipped to our store and we log them in, just like we're supposed to. The only way to ensure that you're logging them in correctly is to read the serial number straight off the gun itself. Anyone who has worked in a gun shop knows that using the box or invoice to record the serial number in the bound book or the 4473 is a VERY bad idea. Anybody that doesn't log the gun in by reading the serial number off the gun itself is making a VERY bad mistake.

As for the people who expect the shop to wait to the last second to log the gun in so the customer can come in and open it: Obviously you've never been involved in trying to run a small business. It would add many more man-hours of work to keep track of each gun and how long it had been in the store un-logged-in, and then wait for the costumer to come pick it up, hoping they'll make it before the deadline. Then when the customer did come in, the specific employees who can log guns in (usually only a few) would have to stop what they're doing and log the gun in. You'd also have to have more storage space because there would be separate areas for logged-in guns and un-logged-in guns. Add in the fact that most customers don't come in when they say they're coming in, and you have a MUCH more complicated, expensive, and time-consuming business practice.

It makes MUCH more sense to have the shipping and receiving people open the box, log it in, and then close it back up and set it aside. Then any employee can deliver the gun when the customer comes in. And if something happens and a rogue employee messes up a customer's gun, then the shop should handle the repair or replacement costs, but that will still be cheaper for the store than having a complicated system where they don't log the guns in right away.
 
You can tell the people in this thread who have never worked in a gun shop and have never had to face scrutiny from the ATF. You can also tell the people who have never had to run a small business and cut costs by streamlining certain services to be as efficient as possible.
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You make far too many unfounded assumptions.

I conceded at the outset that this may well be logistically unreasonable for a high-volume shop (in response to Tom Servo's post).

I happen to have found a shop where this was the existing policy. My FFL deals in very high-dollar weapons, from collectible handguns to Class 3 weapons, and does not have to manage the kind of volume and flow of customers that an all-purpose LGS does. I didn't ask him for special treatment. This is the way he conducts his business, as he prefers not to incur anyone's suspicion or deal with the attendant drama if the gun doesn't arrive in the condition they expected, and the nature of his business makes implementing this policy logistically feasible. Because his customers appreciate this, he has likely calculated that this is a boost to his business, not a detriment.

You should avoid extrapolating from your own particular experience to form assumptions about what works or does not work for all other business, and you should avoid assuming that your particular set of experiences allows you such piercing insight into what anyone else here has or has not done. Evidently this policy would have been a nightmare where you worked. That doesn't mean that would be the case everywhere else.
 
AustinTX said:
You should avoid extrapolating from your own particular experience to form assumptions about what works or does not work for all other business, and you should avoid assuming that your particular set of experiences allows you such piercing insight into what anyone else here has or has not done. Evidently this policy would have been a nightmare where you worked. That doesn't mean that would be the case everywhere else.
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You're absolutely right: I've worked at two LGSs and helped a friend out at a third, but my experience is far from all-encompassing. I should amend my statement by saying that no one should expect a normal high-volume LGS to conduct business this way. If they want a specialty shop that is willing to spend the extra time, effort, and money to do this, then they should find a shop like the one you mentioned.

But expecting all shops to work this way is a little ridiculous in my opinion.
 
Theohazard said:
AustinTX said:
You should avoid extrapolating from your own particular experience to form assumptions about what works or does not work for all other business, and you should avoid assuming that your particular set of experiences allows you such piercing insight into what anyone else here has or has not done. Evidently this policy would have been a nightmare where you worked. That doesn't mean that would be the case everywhere else.
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You're absolutely right: I've worked at two LGSs and helped a friend out at a third, but my experience is far from all-encompassing. I should amend my statement by saying that no one should expect a normal high-volume LGS to conduct business this way. If they want a specialty shop that is willing to spend the extra time, effort, and money to do this, then they should find a shop like the one you mentioned. ....
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I'm glad that's settled.

The law is what it is. If someone has been able to make an arrangement with a dealer that both satisfies his expectations and permits the dealer to comply with legal requirement, swell.

On the other hand, no one should expect any businessman to skirt legal requirements and put his continued existence in business in jeopardy.
 
But expecting all shops to work this way is a little ridiculous in my opinion.
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On the other hand, no one should expect any businessman to skirt legal requirements and put his continued existence in business in jeopardy.
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Totally agree with these statements.
 
"I never said that it wasn't the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. What I'm saying is that it's not possible to guarantee anyone else's behavior, even if you subjected them to assiduous evaluation prior to hiring them."

Well, then, you're in sort of an interesting conundrum. You can either find a single-employee FFL, find one who's willing to bend the law (or break it), or buy your guns at gunshows.

If your FFL is as great as you say he is, then you shouldn't have any problem with him making a bad situation right if one of his employees does something he shouldn't.

Let's face it, though, anytime you purchase a gun in a manner that requires it to be shipped, you're putting your property in the hands of a large number of unknown people who you hope will perform their jobs in such a way that it won't damage your property.

"I said I appreciate a shop that will leave the package unopened as long as legally possible..."

I'm sure all of us do. In a low-volume gun shop that might be a reasonable request to make. But in some gunshops that deal in dozens, or hundreds, or guns a day, it's simply not feasible. Too much tracking, and far too much potential for innocently violating the letter of the law.

"You make far too many unfounded assumptions."

And I'm sorry, but I have to counter that (I know you weren't talking to me directly) that you're really working under a set of unrealistic expectations, especially given the hostile enforcement climate that BATFE has built.
 
I think you're misunderstanding me. If you read what I've said, you'll see that it's not my "expectation" for any business to conduct itself this way. It's simply something I greatly appreciate, and it's a definite point in favor of any shop that does. If it simply weren't available to me, I'd definitely deal -- just like I did during the years before I found this shop. But now that I've found my current dealer, I don't have to use anyone else.

If your FFL is as great as you say he is, then you shouldn't have any problem with him making a bad situation right if one of his employees does something he shouldn't.
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I guess? He runs his business how he sees fit. I'm not going to ask him to start opening boxes as soon as they come in and take then take care of any problems his very few employees might someday create -- just like I didn't ask him not to open the boxes in the first place.

Let's face it, though, anytime you purchase a gun in a manner that requires it to be shipped, you're putting your property in the hands of a large number of unknown people who you hope will perform their jobs in such a way that it won't damage your property.
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I certainly agree with that. I'm relying on the multiple FedEx/UPS/USPS employees who handle the box not to be incompetent, negligent, or malicious with my particular package (and not to be thieves, which happened with packages involving a bunch of gun shops in the Austin area a few years ago). But eliminating one possible node where problems could arise -- one that frankly is not a terribly uncommon source of complaint on gun forums -- where someone else besides the seller can physically handle the actual gun I'm buying before I see it is something I regard as a plus. That's all. I don't "expect" it of anyone. But if I were considering two similar businesses as receiving dealers, and one has the policy while the other does not, it would certainly be a point in favor of the former.

In a low-volume gun shop that might be a reasonable request to make. But in some gunshops that deal in dozens, or hundreds, or guns a day, it's simply not feasible. Too much tracking, and far too much potential for innocently violating the letter of the law.
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I'm not arguing against that either. In fact, I agreed with this in the very first sentence I wrote in this thread.

And, personally, it's not even something I'd feel comfortable requesting. Like I said, I didn't have to ask for it. My dealer evidently understands that some people appreciate his having this policy, and he has evidently calculated that the costs of implementing it are outweighed by the trust, goodwill, etc. that it generates for him and his business.
 
If this was going to be a carry gun I would not really have a problem with minor scratches, the gun is gonna get em anyways. If it was going to be a safe queen I would not take it.

Guns in my mind are meant to be used, keep em clean but don't baby them.
 
At that particular point of time, can you still reject the gun and ask the original shop who sold it to take it back and refund you, or the gun has become yours the second you signed the background check form two days earlier?
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Like it or not, the gun is yours at this point, ethically if not legally as well. If the gun arrived in excellent condition but is now so damaged that you don't want it, what makes you think the seller is now going to take it back after (from his perspective) you damaged it?

Work it out with the FFL. The seller sold it in excellent condition, he packed it so it arrived in excellent condition. There's no reason he should have to deal with it now.
 
We had a gun shop like this in town. He's now out of business (not surprising) and it always felt to me that we were helping him with his hobby not the other way around. ordering guns for the store that he wanted and selling them after he grew tired of them as NIB, I was gonna order a 5.45 from him but after him bragging about running to cans of 7n6 thru a different gun on the rack over the weekend I thought better of it.

Sounds like you are kinda SOL but I would hash it out with the owner a civilly as possible and find yourself another FFL to do business with.
 
Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there?
It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it? That way, you BOTH get to see it at the same time. Especially if ATF isn't going to bop you for it. I know all about being busy and needing to get things done, but c'mon folks!
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If you're the dealer doing the transfer, it's legally "your " gun until the customer completes the paperwork and a transfer is approved, and therefore needs to be logged in.

No one puts all the info on the outside of the box, and quite often any "packng list is IN the box.

If you want to take chances with YOUR license, that's your choice.

Most dealers open boxes as they come in due to lack of room and to save confusion as to "what's in that box again?"
 
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