FFL who abused your held gun. What to do?

A

adrian44

New member
You bought a gun online and it got delivered to a local FFl shop. You went and examined it well and found it to be in factory's perfect condition, then you filled the background check form and singed it. The response on the phone comes as a conditional non-approval, which is something that you're familiar with because of someone who has a similar name. You leave it and go home.

The approval comes two days later, you go to pick it up, examine it again before doing anything else, find that it has scratches on it, some one had loaded a snap cap and forgot it in the barrel, and it's clear to you that the people working there have been playing with your new gun during those two days of delay.

At that particular point of time, can you still reject the gun and ask the original shop who sold it to take it back and refund you, or the gun has become yours the second you signed the background check form two days earlier?

Thank you.
 
Yah, that is a weird situation, I had a local shop open some of my shipped guns, that sucked, but he is good to me and there was no damage so I never said anything...

I would have confronted the shop as soon as I seen the damage, I would have said "hey, what the front door, who beat on my gun" they would be like "no one touched it" then I would have said "so this isnt your snap cap", at the minimum the transfer fees should be returned, and then if you threaten to call the atf because you are worried it was used in a crime, I am sure the shop owners would be trying to come to a solution... If not accidentally drop something through one of their glass cases and trip and fall on the way out, tell them to expect to hear from your lawyer, lol...

But seriously, I would never use them again, its a lesson learned, its your gun now, this is why you need a trust worthy shop doing transfers, I always buy something when I am getting a transfer from a new place, I recently switched states so had to start all new relationships with new companies, it gets expensive but, it gets me treated a little better as a customer, not just a guy making them do paperwork for $20...
 
I had a local shop open some of my shipped guns, that sucked, but he is good to me and there was no damage so I never said anything...
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That's another bummer! The duct tape was cut and box of the gun was opened the very first time I went, but I assumed he needed to do that to check the serial number for the form or anything. I'm more upset now knowing that he shouldn't have opened it, because had I known that I would have rejected it right away before filling the forms :mad:
 
I would definitely not go quietly, even if there isn't anything you can do about. at the very least, mention it, and mention that you are unhappy to say the least, and se if they will do anything to keep your business. at the very least, the owner needs to know this is happening at his store to prevent it from happening to other customers.
 
Always have the guy shipping it write your name on the outside of the box, so..
to: ABC Gun Shoppe'
Attention:YOUR NAME
123 ABC Way
NY, NY 10458

this way they can not use the excuse "we didn't know whos gun it was", which is BS because they can easily just look up the ffl's they sent their ffls to and figure it out..

The gun shops should not open your package, with the exception of the above incident that I described I have NEVER had another shop open one of my packages, I open them hand them the FFL and Paperwork, read them the serial number, sign the ppw and leave with my gun...
 
The receiving dealer has to open the parcel to record the serial number in his book.* Other than that, he and his employees should leave the gun alone, period.

There is no way that what happened is the fault of the sending shop or the original seller, it is totally the responsibility of the receiving shop, your local dealer. You could sue, but could not recover more than the value of the gun, and unless it is a mint Paterson, your attorney's fees would probably be more than the gun is worth. Calling BATFE would be silly; they enforce Federal laws, they are not the Better Business Bureau and do not settle disputes between customers and stores.

As to smashing display cases or making a fraudulent injury claim, those are crimes, and I doubt going to jail and having a police record will help your cause. (At the extreme, it might mean a permanent ban on gun ownership!)

Your best bet is to deal with the situation calmly, making no threats, and try to work out a deal. If that fails, pay whatever fees the dealer wants, take your property and avoid that shop in the future.

*Edited to add: The dealer has to record the gun ID and serial number FROM THE GUN in his book. He should not take the customer's word for it or record the information from the shipping document. Further, the customer is going to sign documents that say he is in possession of such and such a gun, and should be certain that he does have that item.

If the dealer allows the customer to take the parcel from the shop unopened, then the customer has no recourse if the parcel does not contain the expected item.

Jim
 
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I actually did something, but wanted to know if I could have just rejected it so that the shop who sold it would be equally angry at them for losing him the sale. In other words wanted to know at what point exactly does it become your gun.
 
There is no way that what happened is the fault of the sending shop
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Of course you are right. Except that in this case the FFL was highly recommended by the selling shop and I was almost pressured into giving them the business instead of my usual gun shop which the seller didn't like for some reason. This is why my conscience would have been clear holding the seller responsible and returning the gun with the damage caused by his highly recommended friends.
 
I would talk to the owner. Tell him what happened and see what he does. IMHO you cannot refuse the gun because the seller shipped you a perfect gun. Your issue is with the transfer dealer not the seller. You cannot dump your the problem between you and the transfer dealer onto the seller. IMHO

Demand that's the transfer dealer make it right. If he does not you can take them to small claims court.
 
I filmed the scratches and the discovery of the snap cap on my cellphone, and told the people that the owner (who had left) needs to call me in the morning or else I'm complaining to BBB and posting the video online. I'm so upset with this sort of irresponsible and unprofessional behavior from people who work in such a sensitive trade. I'll go to sleep. Thanks for the information.
 
Hey James did you notice I was joking, hence the "But seriously" comment underneath all of that...

PS-as far as logging them in, the ffls around here, put the packages in a safe and give you a call when it arrives, I go down that day and open the package... Some will sign them in if you are going to be a while, they open it log it in and close it up... I have had many expensive guns shipped, My beretta first beretta eell was $25K, they did not open that box, I did... I had a Blazer shipped with 2 coopers and a Sako 85, they all shipped in one box!!! {first time I seen a company do that, I bought all of their auctions on gunbroker, they listed 4 guns at half price I bought all 4 for $5200 the Blazer was worth that alone}, they called me because the box was too big to put in the safe, the owner knows what I boy because I tell him when I am doing the ppw, I ran right down and opened it all up {I was half afraid of a scam, but I did talk to the shop owner before sending my 6 money orders}...


So maybe it is different elsewhere, I know with some new guns they will open other peoples stuff, but hardly ever with used guns, and since they know I don't like it and will come right down they never open them before me...

Again, for the people who didn't get that I was joking about breaking the case and calling the atf, it would be silly to do such a thing, and I was joking... But I would definitely bring it up, and I would not pay the transfer fee, if they had an issue with that, I WOULD call the BBB...
 
Once the paperwork is called in, its yours unless you get denied, and yes the FFL has to open the package and record the SN in his book. I would of gotten mad and voiced my complaint with the recieving FFL. Sorry to hear you got shafted by a poor FFL dealer who does not take better care of your item. If no resolution is achieved I think a complaint to the BBB is in order.
 
Good point on small claims court; most gun transactions would be under the small claims limit and an attorney is generally not necessary. Still, you would have to pay a filing fee. Then it would be your word against his and you might be hard up both to prove your claims that your dealer caused the damage and that the value of the item was substantially reduced by his action.

Even if you win, you would probably collect only the difference between the value of the gun you claimed you saw and the value of the gun as it is now, not the full value of a new gun.

Jim
 
then if you threaten to call the atf because you are worried it was used in a crime
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That would fall under filing a false report, which is a crime. Please don't give such advice.

PS-as far as logging them in, the ffls around here, put the packages in a safe and give you a call when it arrives, I go down that day and open the package.
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Sorry, but I've got too much volume to do that. The guns get opened, checked, and logged in as soon as possible after they arrive.

Then again, I'm very careful with them. They're not my property.

I'm complaining to BBB.
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The Better Business Bureau isn't what it used to be. Many businesses don't even bother listening, and BBB ratings don't often show up well in search results.

If you've been wronged, Google and Yelp reviews are more powerful tools.
 
Hi, Riflemen,

I am glad you are always able to get to the shops immediately on being called; many of us have other things to do. Also that you have such accommodating dealers that they are willing to violate BATFE regulations to avoid inconveniencing you. My dealers are good friends, but they are not willing to lose their licenses by having un-recorded guns in their shops.

As to the BBB, around here they charge a substantial fee just to record a complaint; few folks bother to check with them and store owners usually ignore them. Of course if one is very wealthy and influential, as you seem to be, I am sure your complaints would be more effective than those of most of us.

Jim
 
JamesK, there's not an ATF agent anywhere that's going to nail you for having a gun that just arrived THAT DAY via FedEx, UPS or USPS not recorded in your book yet if the box isn't opened. In fact, it looks like the receiving FFL has up to 7 days to record the arrival in their A&D Records: https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-12.pdf Bottom of page 75, 12.5.1

If the box has all pertinent information on the label or packing slip, IMO there's no reason for the shop to touch it. And wouldn't shops like to avoid this scenario anyway? Pretty hard to have your guys accused of manhandling a gun if it's still in the box. I'd make sure it was closed and taped up again for the waiting period if it were MY store - take the monkey factor completely out of the equation.

Adrian44, please let us know what happens tomorrow! I'd also like to know what kind of gun it is...:D
 
Sorry if I am short today, I have a lot on my mind, before we leave I have to put up our xmass tree
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Man do I wish alot on my mind meant decorating the Christmas tree before I have to leave for my private villa in Italy :p
 
We open all firearms shipments we receive and verify serial numbers from the firearms, but we do not play with the guns.
Over the years we have found a few guns whose serial numbers did not match the paperwork.
Too serious a business not to be cautious to the extreme.
 
Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there? It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it? That way, you BOTH get to see it at the same time. Especially if ATF isn't going to bop you for it. I know all about being busy and needing to get things done, but c'mon folks!
 
Man do I wish alot on my mind meant decorating the Christmas tree before I have to leave for my private villa in Italy
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Its a hard life, :D , Believe me it wasn't always like this, you are from New england also so I am sure you know how hard it is to start with nothing and turn it into something, I put in my 85 hour work weeks and missed my kids growing up {to 12 anyway}, I sold my business and now life is relaxing and enjoyable, we go to italy often and the price of property was a steal, 7 bedrooms so my wife rents it every once and a while if we are not going for a period of time to people that live around us that we know in some way or another... It keeps her busy... Maybe why I am such a beretta buff...

And 10 points to you for knowing where Liguria is, very nice, I remember when we were looking for a place my wife said "Liguria" and I was like "what, isn't that in Austria?" it just sounds right "Liguria Austria", but its not, it is in Italy, and like a hidden paradise on earth, the people are nice, considerate, polite, and beautiful, the beaches are like drawings of what you would think a beach should look like, its amazing... I just talked a friend of ours that stayed there into buying a property that came up for sale, he spent almost 2 million on a 4 bedroom 4000 miles and an ocean away from us, lol the place has that effect on people...


ANYWAY, like I said, opening is not the "norm", the shops around here DO NOT do it, it is very rare, I hear some guys say they had to open it because they had 2 guns there and didn't know which was which.... But besides that our guys wont open them, I deal with multiple shops {5 to be exact} and I don't think they are treating me special, lol...
 
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