felons
- Thread starter psycho nut
- Start date
I should clarify. I was thinking solely of violent criminals. Not a guy that gets in a bar fight and ends up being charged with assault because one drunk had a better lawyer. I'm talking a guy convicted of beating up a guy for his wallet or something of the sort. Real criminals, people who don't give two fraks about the life and property of others.
Non violent criminals should be rehabilitated...or least I believe we should try to rehabilitate them before they become violent. Putting someone in jail for five years for stealing a car is going to risk making them violent and more likely to hurt someone. Someone that steals a car and in the process stabs the driver shouldn't be let back into society....ever.
That's just my opinion though; I feel that if someone maliciously hurts another person, especially in the commission of a crime, that person doesn't deserve to be around the rest of us. We all have the right to life and people like that threaten that right.
I didn't mean to suggest all felons. If I remember correctly some states will classify a few ounces of marijuana as distribution and thus count as a felony. There's no way I'd think about putting a pot dealer behind bars for life....but why should a guy that broke an old grandmother's ribs by knocking her to the ground when he stole her purse be given a second chance after ten years?
By "they" I mean people that directly threaten the safety of others. There'd be plenty of room in jail for those people if the non violent offenders were given a chance to truly pay for their crimes (and especially if the non violent drug offenders were released because y'know....they haven't done anything wrong in the first place; but that's for a different thread
).See, the funny part is that people tend to think that "good" and "evil" are concepts in nature. They're not; we invented those ideas. Animals murder and rape but we don't call it murder and rape. Violence is an inherent part of nature and thus an inherent part of humanity.
The only way to remove all "evil" from humanity is to eliminate the one and only source of this so-called "evil": humans.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
The problem is that the law makes no distinction regarding gun ownership once you're classified as a "felon". The guy whose attorney filed the wrong tax form, and the Californian who had the wrong piece of metal at the end of his rifle are on the same level as the home-invading robber or the rapist.
Once again, be careful what you wish for, lest you get it.
Personally, I think that if no one's rights have been violated by force or fraud, no crime has been committed. But in a society that insists on calling even the most tangential victimless infractions "felonies", the idea of tying any civil right to non-felon status is not only ridiculous, but also highly dangerous. It provides for a way for the majority to deny civil rights that are supposedly inalienable. (I don't see a "felon exception" for the right to freedom of religion, the right to a jury trial, the protection against double jeopardy, or the right to free speech. Are the antis right, and is the Second Amendment an exception because it's truly more dangerous than the other items on the Bill of Rights?)
Here's how I look at it. If you're such a danger to society that you can't be trusted with a firearm then you shouldn't be a member of society in the first place. I have no tolerance for murderers, rapists, pedophiles and the like. As far as driving without a license, that does not show that you would intentionally hurt someone and really shouldn't be a felony in the first place. What I'm getting at is that a felony shouldn't necisarrily disqualify you for gun ownership but if you're a truly violent criminal you should still be in prison anyway. Someone who gets in a fistfight in a bar has had a lapse of judgement. Someone who beats his wife and children because it makes him feel powerful is a monster. There are enough intelligent people out there that we should be able to discern the difference.
A few years ago a Professor of Constituional Law pointed out to me that the U.S. Constitution does not provide for forfeiture of rights, and I will not
support erosion of a Constitional Right through mere legislation. I note that not only felons but people convicted of domestic violence, even where it is a
misdemeanor or a disorderly persons offense, have been stripped of their RKBA-the Lautenberg amendment. To those who say that surely you don't want felons to be allowed to own firearms I reply by saying think what this country would be like if once convicted felons forfeited ALL their rights-their right to remain silent, their right to trial by jury, to confront the witnesses and
evidence against them, etc. I do not approve of felons being allowed to own firearms, but I think we need a clear and consistent policy and not one that is
too selective.
support erosion of a Constitional Right through mere legislation. I note that not only felons but people convicted of domestic violence, even where it is a
misdemeanor or a disorderly persons offense, have been stripped of their RKBA-the Lautenberg amendment. To those who say that surely you don't want felons to be allowed to own firearms I reply by saying think what this country would be like if once convicted felons forfeited ALL their rights-their right to remain silent, their right to trial by jury, to confront the witnesses and
evidence against them, etc. I do not approve of felons being allowed to own firearms, but I think we need a clear and consistent policy and not one that is
too selective.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
SIGSHR hits the real nub of the issue. When we argue that "some people" should not be allowed to own firearms we fall into the same trap as the gun-grabbers....we admit that firearms, in and of themselves, are dangerous and we need to be careful who is allowed to own them. More important, we admit that the Second Amendment deserves "special handling" compared to the other nine.
This is no different than the position taken by the Brady crowd...they only draw a different line in the sand as to who should "enjoy the privilege".
Basically, if you have "paid your debt" to society, I couldn't care less what your crime was. I may not choose to hang out with you; might commit a crime of my own if you approach my children; and I might even be uncomfortable seeing you walk into a gun store. But there is simply no way I can protect my own rights without supporting yours.
Rich
This is no different than the position taken by the Brady crowd...they only draw a different line in the sand as to who should "enjoy the privilege".
Basically, if you have "paid your debt" to society, I couldn't care less what your crime was. I may not choose to hang out with you; might commit a crime of my own if you approach my children; and I might even be uncomfortable seeing you walk into a gun store. But there is simply no way I can protect my own rights without supporting yours.
Rich
The premise that a released felon should not be able to own a firearm is the same as:
He should not be able to own a kife:
He should not be able to own a brick:
He should not be able to own a baseball bat:
He should not be able to own a pointed stick:
Every citizen should be able to be armed, which includes having a gun or a knife or a claw hammer if that is the weapon of their choice. A person who has been convicted of a crime and sentenced to a finite sentence and who has served that sentence as decreed by the governing authority should be left to his own devices just as he was before being convicted. There are an awful lot of citizens out there that it makes me nervous to think they are armed, but I don't want to abridge their rights over my nervousness, as I don't want them abridging mine.
He should not be able to own a kife:
He should not be able to own a brick:
He should not be able to own a baseball bat:
He should not be able to own a pointed stick:
Every citizen should be able to be armed, which includes having a gun or a knife or a claw hammer if that is the weapon of their choice. A person who has been convicted of a crime and sentenced to a finite sentence and who has served that sentence as decreed by the governing authority should be left to his own devices just as he was before being convicted. There are an awful lot of citizens out there that it makes me nervous to think they are armed, but I don't want to abridge their rights over my nervousness, as I don't want them abridging mine.
Responsibility
Responsibility belongs with the offender. If you know it's a felony and you want to keep the right to bear arms,don't do it. I deal with these guys daily and for most of them there is no way I would restore the right. That being said there are some laws that need to be looked at. Every person that gets in this situation can usually describe in great detail why they are different from the next bad guy ect. Most of it does not wash.
Follow up
Prisons do rehabilitate. The magic answer has not been found. Programming of the offender with specific target areas may help the reduce recitivism rate. I do support a petition of the courts to have rights restored after a period of time and with the nature of the offense in mind. However, this is also a long subject because can you imagine the first one of these guys/gals that uses a firearm in the course of another felony? The public outrage would be huge. Not that it matters because if he/she wants a firearm they will get one. Complicated.
Responsibility belongs with the offender. If you know it's a felony and you want to keep the right to bear arms,don't do it. I deal with these guys daily and for most of them there is no way I would restore the right. That being said there are some laws that need to be looked at. Every person that gets in this situation can usually describe in great detail why they are different from the next bad guy ect. Most of it does not wash.
Follow up
Prisons do rehabilitate. The magic answer has not been found. Programming of the offender with specific target areas may help the reduce recitivism rate. I do support a petition of the courts to have rights restored after a period of time and with the nature of the offense in mind. However, this is also a long subject because can you imagine the first one of these guys/gals that uses a firearm in the course of another felony? The public outrage would be huge. Not that it matters because if he/she wants a firearm they will get one. Complicated.
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CO,
First welcome
Now, to get to your points. I think that Rich put it well:
People DON'T know. Each state is different, what is a felony in one, is not in another.
If a person is deemed "rehabilitated" by the courts and the jail system and is let out, why are they now, "non" citizens? If the courts and jail let them out, why shouldn't they enjoy the Rights that all American's (with the exception of felons)?
If you think that they shouldn't have guns, or Rights, then why are they out? If they cannot be deemed a member of society then why are they in society?
One thing that you have to remember, being new and also bringing up an old thread, is one thing, Freedom has a cost and if you and others aren't willing to pay it then you don't deserve it.
It used to be that being an American meant that you make a mistake, you do your time, get out, and you continue to be an American. Now, it's others that deem a person a "non" American just because and they treat them as such.
Why do you think most criminals don't wish to change? When they get out they know that they will be treated as a non-American, with no Rights and no chance. Hell, if I ever got convicted of a crime that took away my Rights, you're dang right that I would go to the underground in order to at least feel like I was an American again, no matter the cost.
Unintended Consequences(sp?). I firmly believe that as long as we live, we will make mistakes. Some of those mistakes will be held as felonies in a court of law, and knowing that we are now non-Americans, what would I have to lose? Go to jail? Not getting a job? Having this hanging over me and treated like crap until the day I die even if I reformed, gone straight, and wish to add to society but knowing that I will always be looked down upon, can't have any Rights, in a way, I don't blame them (the felons) for what they do when they get out.
But at the same time, I don't blame the states that have done so to allow the citizens to protect their own from those that are going on this (crime) instead of being productive.
Wayne
First welcome
Now, to get to your points. I think that Rich put it well:
People DON'T know. Each state is different, what is a felony in one, is not in another.
If a person is deemed "rehabilitated" by the courts and the jail system and is let out, why are they now, "non" citizens? If the courts and jail let them out, why shouldn't they enjoy the Rights that all American's (with the exception of felons)?
If you think that they shouldn't have guns, or Rights, then why are they out? If they cannot be deemed a member of society then why are they in society?
One thing that you have to remember, being new and also bringing up an old thread, is one thing, Freedom has a cost and if you and others aren't willing to pay it then you don't deserve it.
It used to be that being an American meant that you make a mistake, you do your time, get out, and you continue to be an American. Now, it's others that deem a person a "non" American just because and they treat them as such.
Why do you think most criminals don't wish to change? When they get out they know that they will be treated as a non-American, with no Rights and no chance. Hell, if I ever got convicted of a crime that took away my Rights, you're dang right that I would go to the underground in order to at least feel like I was an American again, no matter the cost.
Unintended Consequences(sp?). I firmly believe that as long as we live, we will make mistakes. Some of those mistakes will be held as felonies in a court of law, and knowing that we are now non-Americans, what would I have to lose? Go to jail? Not getting a job? Having this hanging over me and treated like crap until the day I die even if I reformed, gone straight, and wish to add to society but knowing that I will always be looked down upon, can't have any Rights, in a way, I don't blame them (the felons) for what they do when they get out.
But at the same time, I don't blame the states that have done so to allow the citizens to protect their own from those that are going on this (crime) instead of being productive.
Wayne
I was driving down the road today and saw another one of those "Unlicensed contracting in Florida is a felony" signs that went up after the hurricanes. Holy crap. I've done that. I've worked on at least two roofs with friends and was paid for it. I'm not a licensed roofing contractor.
I'm an evil man. Someone take my guns! Quick! Who knows what I'll do next?! Trespass on a construction site?! (Also a felony)
I'm an evil man. Someone take my guns! Quick! Who knows what I'll do next?! Trespass on a construction site?! (Also a felony)