Federal Weapons Permit (National Carry) ?!

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TPAW said:
Hence, the retired LEO has the right to FULL CARRY to protect himself and his family.
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Retribution against Ex-Cops.
Retribution against Ex-Spouses
Retribution against Ex-Girlfriends.
Retribution against Judges, Civic Activists, Neighborhood Watch Organizers, Employers, Co-Workers, The Clerk at 7-11, Companies.....

Surely, none of us will make the argument that Ex-Cops are more likely to be the target....especially in the context of a National Right to Carry.

Creating Privileged Classes is not the function of the Law...I submit it's proper function is to do just the opposite.
Rich
 
I too have no problem with retired leo's carrying concealed anymore than any other citizen. However in my view the law G.W. signed into law is unconstitutional since it creates a special class
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Because all people were created equal under our Constitution right? Except Indians, blacks and women as history shows...
 
"Camel-nose-under-the-tent" works both ways, as does the old "Frog-in-boiling-water".

Gun control advocates have been taking our Second Amendment rights bit-by-bit and piecemeal for years, if not decades.

I figure that we'll get them back the same way. Step-by-step.

Gun banners got little laws passed, and then expanded them, amended them and stretched those laws to achieve their results.

We passed little CCL laws amongst the states, and we're amending and expanding them. Now we've got a nose under the Federal tent, and we're going to ease our way into that one, too.

We're slowly and quietly doing to the gun-banners what they've been doing to us since 1934.

Now, I understand that the "frog-in-the-pot" method isn't quick or flashy enough to suit some people. I'm sorry, but you've had the same amount of time that we've had to get things done the quick-and-flashy way.

And I understand that some people are going to get into a snit because we're not succeeding fast enough.

Free country. How-some-ever, would you mind taking your snit home? We're trying to sneak under some tents here.

LawDog
 
I'm not here to defend it, that's just the way it is. It's been on the books since the early 1900's, perhaps eariler. Take it up with your Senator or Congressman. The squeaky wheel gets the most grease.
Good Luck!
 
As Lawdog points out, this just shows how long and hard it is to get any federal gun rights restored. IIRC, it was around the mid-80s that the big push began for allowing sworn LEOs the right to carry anywhere in the US. Back then, the anti's were lining up police chiefs that were actively fighting against letting their officers carry. This fight was not really a "gun control" fight, but a LEO fight put on by their various organizations, associations and unions. That's 20+ years of fighting for something most Americans wouldn't think twice about allowing.

On the other hand, look at the gains we have made at the state level in the same 20 years. With states like CA, NY, MA and NJ, the odds of a national CCW are about zero in our lifetime. Yet my Florida CCW is now accepted in almost 30 states.

We have to fight the battles we can win.
 
LawDog and HK-
I've no problem with some of "us" being first to get the nose under the tent. My only problem in this case is the "who" in context:
Law Enforcement Officers at a time when this nation is accelerating toward Police State.

Had it been stalking victims, parents or cab drivers, I'd be applauding and would have supported it. In the present case, it's a group (of my brothers) whose main voice (FOP) has been, for the most part, trying to keep the REST of the camel out in the cold for years. Ohio notwithstanding, when they stop advancing the Privileged Class agenda, they'll get my full support.

Prurient Victory, IMHO. YMMV
Rich
 
I'm a former LEO and I agree wholeheartedly with Rich. Responsible, law abiding citizens are just that. Doesn't matter what job they may have held down. We are citizens and we have rights in general. One of them pertains to firearms which is ratified in the BoR in black and white and in english. The BoR say "people" not retired bakers, lawmen, writers, poets, and other classifications of people; just people. I appreciate the philosophical viewpoint of Lawdog, but it reminds me of the adage that "you must creep before your walk and walk before you run. Well the BoR hit the ground running and we have been going backwards towards creeping ever since.

In many ways I am glad the NRA has the reputation for being a forceful engine for the 2A. We need a voice that is as far to the right as the gun grabbers have gone to the left to counter their nonsense.
 
Now we've got a nose under the Federal tent, and we're going to ease our way into that one, too.
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The problem is that we, the citizenry without the Magic Badge, don't have squat on the federal level. The ones with the Magic Badge do, and many of the ones I know now sport a "I got mine" attitude that is a little hard to suffer. (Not you, Ian, Matt, or Johnny...just a few of the local city and county boys.)

FOP and other national LE organizations now have absolutely no reason to back a federal reciprocity law...not that they were ever in favor of the unwashed masses carrying guns anyway.

I really hate to get into an argument with my LE friends over this, but this is just one more thing that's driving a wedge between LEOs and Regular Joes. I for one fully support the right of any LEO to carry nationwide, but I know damn few LEOs who don't get a nervous twitch and a whiny voice when I dare to claim the same right for myself. ("Do you have any idea how dangerous this job will get if they just let any yokel from Nebraska carry a piece in New York City?")
 
In 1872, the U.S. Supreme Court established in Taylor v. Taintor established that a bounty hunter tracking a bail-jumper "may pursue him into another state; may arrest him on the Sabbath; and if necessary, may break and enter his house for that purpose."

They don’t need warrants because the bail-seeker agrees in the bail bond contract to being arrested if he skips town.
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Went and looked at the decision. It says nothing about "firearms".

A recent case based on and including the text at hand.
 
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I totally agree with what Rich and others have been saying on this. If you take person A and person B, (who are both EQUAL UNDER THE LAW) then say that simply because person A held a job that person B did not, person A is eligible for the special privledge of whatever, that by itself makes person A and person B no longer equal.

Our RIGHTS (as written) are supposed to be granted to us because we are equal, by creation.

not because of our color, or creed, or religion, or JOB WE HELD......

no disrespect to LEO's, but what makes you special, or better than me, that you DESERVE to have a right or privledge that I don't? (when retired) Just because you were a LEO? So what. Thats like saying I deserve more pay at work because I'm WHITE, or a MAN......
 
So, you want us to stop? You want us to say, "To hell with it, nevermind?"

The Federal law can be amended. Maybe add an amendment to exempt retired military in a Congressional session or so. Work our way around to airline pilots, people travelling between CCW states.

Should we quit? Some folks didn't get what they wanted right now, we should take our toys and go home?

HR218 was LEAA's baby. The Law Enforcement Alliance of America got HR218 rolling 13 years ago. It took thirteen years to get it to pass. Now that it has finally passed, it can be amended. One goal is to have state-issued CCW licenses added to the list of people who can carry.

Is it going to happen tomorrow? No. Want us to give up? Punk out because you didn't get what you wanted?

Are CCW holders going to be added to HR218 in five years? Probably not. It took 13 years to get national CCW for cops. You want me to pull my Life Membership in LEAA because we couldn't get citizen CCW's added right now?

Hell, move over. Instead of spending my time and my money helping LEAA work to amend HR218 to include all CCW holders, like 50,000 other cops, I'll come pout with y'all. Save me time and money and I can help fume and agonize over the fact that we're not getting all of our right back, nownownow!

"But, LawDog, national concealed carry for cops makes me feel like a second class citizen, since I ain't a cop!"

Well, I'm sorry, but this is the Real World. It took thirteen years in a political climate not very damned conducive for guns at all for national CCW for cops to pass, and it only barely made it this time. A full-out national CCW for everyone wouldn't have made it out of committee.

We settled for what we could get, which was national CCW for officers and plan on adding to it later.

You don't like that political reality, you take it up with the 50+ % of American gun-owners who couldn't be bothered to vote in the last few elections.

80 million gun owners in the US. If just half of them would god-damned vote for the Second Amendment, we in Law Enforcement wouldn't have been forced to play political games for the last 13 ****ing years just to get national CCW for cops passed.

Now.

HR218 will be amended to add citizen CCW to it. It ain't going to happen tomorrow. It may not happen until your children's lifetime, but us cops will do our damndest to get you there.

You don't like that, then I suggest that instead of bitching about feeling like a second-class citizen, you spend the time working to get at least half of the 80 million gun-owners in this country to vote for the Second Amendment, and make LEAA and HR218 obsolete. Hell, I figure a quarter of them would get the job done.

LawDog
 
I think all you guys are forgetting one very important fact. A LEO carries a firearm both exposed and concealed depending on his assignment because it is the tool of his trade. Just like a carpenter carries a hammer, a painter a paintbush and a fireman an ax or hose, a LEO must carry a firearm to protect himself and YOU!
If everybody were allowed to carry a concealed firearm as some of you suggest, our cities would become battle grounds! Every LEO walking a foot post or riding in a patrol car would have to suspect that everyone he is looking at is carrying a concealed weapon. His heightened anxiety each and every time he was involved in a bar fight, family dispute, traffic accident arguement, etc., would create such an elevated level of fear, that increased shootings would probably occur!
There are too many negatives to allow everyone to carry a concealed weapon. A LEO needs it to do his job, it's part of his uniform, not yours! He is out there putting his ass on the line, not you! Just the mere fact that he wears a uniform makes him a target. It's like putting a bulls eye on your back every day! Every scumbag on the street knows who the LEO is, but the LEO does not have a clue that the scumbag could be standing right next to him, and worse yet, have a concealed firearm.
For that reason alone, not everyone should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon.
Furthermore, unlike the LEO, most people would not know when they could legally use deadly physical force. You would have people out there playing cop, shooting purse snatchers, car thieves and shoplifters. Think of the dangers your own families would be in when they went out for the day. They could be accidentially shot by some clown who thinks he's Clint Eastwood, "Make my Day"! Those people are out there and you know it!
Not to mention the fact that many people who have handguns, don't even know how to load, shoot, unload or clean the damm thing.
 
carebear,

A very respected source told me the BEA information, and I will do some digging to find out more information. With a couple of state CCW (Utah and Florida) which are recognized by a majority of states, might be enough to give you an almost nationwide coverage....
 
Tpaw,

If everybody were allowed to carry a concealed firearm as some of you suggest, our cities would become battle grounds!
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Just over the state line from you, in Vermont, they let everyone do just that. I hear the blood runs ankle-deep in the gutters of Killington.
 
LawDog wrote:

I'll come pout with y'all. Save me time and money and I can help fume and agonize over the fact that we're not getting all of our right back, nownownow!
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Its just that kind of elitist attitude that further drives a wedge between the 'common man' and the LEO. Pout with me? How smug you can be. Now granted I don't know your history, but I'd be willing to bet that I have served this country, both in foreign and domestic situations, JUST AS MUCH if not MORE than 90% of your LEO's out there. But my combat training and excellent markmanship can't possibly hold up to your average LEO's 'academy' training and well documented cases of their 'SUPERB' marksmanship huh? :rolleyes:

And I understand your point lawdog, and do in fact support LEOs, both in spirit, and financially. Everything STARTS SOMEWHERE. It just happened to start with ex-leos. Okay FINE. No problem. Lets just make sure that you keep the right attitude about it, and not quit fighting for MY RIGHTS, just cuz you GOT YOURS, And thats the real problem with that type of attitude now ain't it?
 
TPAW wrote:

If everybody were allowed to carry a concealed firearm as some of you suggest, our cities would become battle grounds! Every LEO walking a foot post or riding in a patrol car would have to suspect that everyone he is looking at is carrying a concealed weapon.
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There are too many negatives to allow everyone to carry a concealed weapon
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Every scumbag on the street knows who the LEO is, but the LEO does not have a clue that the scumbag could be standing right next to him, and worse yet, have a concealed firearm.
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(BEFORE I START, if your post was sacasm, I appologize ahead of time)

First, why would the LEO have to suspect EVERYONE? Is EVERYONE Guilty until proven Innocent? He has something to fear from a law abiding person who has never commited a crime in their life, who happens to have a firearm?

Second, we don't ALLOW 'everyone' to carry a firearm. Just the law abiding, non-criminal, upstanding citizen types. (ever hear of the 2nd ammendment?)

Third, the LEO is ALWAYS going to have to worry about the 'scumbag', but he doesn't have to worry about honest citizens with guns does he? Is an honest CCW holding citizen just going to start blasting away as you describe? Or will he act like a hero and defend the lives of others when necessary, including LEOS in trouble? Are you bunching the honest people who have the RIGHT TO CARRY in with the scumbags? Sounds like it. I think you need to either grow up, wise up, or perhaps read a little more. Start with something good like the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution perhaps. ;)
 
LawDog,

I see your point viz. the frog and the camel. I also see Rich's point regarding which particular camel got the nose in first, as some people in the anti camp don't view you LEO's as normal citizens, but as special tools of the .gov who should have special powers.

Long as we keep the ball rolling (or the camel crawling, as the case may be,) it's all good.
 
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