Do any of you know what the Federal Air Marshal (FAM) program uses for guns and ammo on airliners? I heard once they were using ammo like the Glaser Safety Slugs either the Blue full of #12 shot or the Silver full of #6 shot. Other times I heard reports they were using either 9mm hollow points or 357 hollow points. Also do the pilots arm themselves too and with what? Common sense should tell you that even a 9mm or even a 38 Special HP has the chance to over penetrate in those close quarters of a plane and hit another passenger or go through a window or through the hull and cause a lot of problems.
Federal Air Marshal guns/ammo questions...
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Technosavant
New member
A bullet piercing the skin of an airliner is NOT a problem. It would only be a problem if it pierced the pilot or a hydraulic line on its way out. Besides, I'm not sure if the skin of the airplane is enough to stop a safety slug anyway.
Airliners are not perfectly sealed tubes. There is always a certain amount of air leakage, but the bleed air from the engines is able to keep up with it without a hitch. Even if there were a huge hole (far larger than any handgun can cause, the plane can still fly; an Aloha Airlines 737 lost quite a bit of fuselage (something like 30 feet worth of the entire upper hemisphere) and they still landed just fine (the only casualties were a small number of people who were sucked out).
Airliners are not perfectly sealed tubes. There is always a certain amount of air leakage, but the bleed air from the engines is able to keep up with it without a hitch. Even if there were a huge hole (far larger than any handgun can cause, the plane can still fly; an Aloha Airlines 737 lost quite a bit of fuselage (something like 30 feet worth of the entire upper hemisphere) and they still landed just fine (the only casualties were a small number of people who were sucked out).
Delaware_Dan
New member
As far as I know, (the internet) they use H&K USPc 9mms. Not sure what load though.
JollyRoger
New member
I knew an Air Marshal who managed to get out of the plane and onto a task force (a lot of these guys will do anything to get off the plane after a couple of years.) His issue weapon was a .357 Sig, I think it was a model 229. I don't know what brand of ammo they were issuing, but the round was a standard 125 gr. hollowpoint. Pretty stout recoil in the SIG. FWIW, I think he said they were not too worried about penetrating the skin of the aircraft, but were told to avoid shooting into the floor, as that is where the critical airplane stuff is located: hydraulic lines and control systems.
Mythbusters tackled this one and completely busted it. A bullet through the skin of the plane simply caused a whistling noise as the air squirted out. Same with a bullet through a passenger compartment window. If the entire window somehow blew out, a person could possibly be severely injured if they were sucked into the opening. However, absolutely NO explosive decompression was observed from the bullet hole.
EastSideRich
New member
Don't they use Extreme Shock Air Freedom?
Afterall, this is what it says on their website:
In all seriousness, I would guess they use real bullets, just like everyone else.
Also, according to Wikipedia, taken from USA Today(I think it's generally a pretty reliable source):
Afterall, this is what it says on their website:
In all seriousness, I would guess they use real bullets, just like everyone else.
Also, according to Wikipedia, taken from USA Today(I think it's generally a pretty reliable source):
I do not know what Air Marshalls carry. I have an aviation degree and fly aircraft, so I am qualified to say the following:
*A bullet hole, even through a window will not "suck" anybody out or make the aircraft uncontrollable. The only thing that will happen is the pilots will get the cabin altitude warning in the cockpit at a cabin altitude of about 10,000 feet and the oxygen masks would drop at a cabin altitude of around 14,000 feet.
*Aircraft actually have devices called outflow valves that regulate the pressure in the cabin. They routinely open part way during flight to let out excess bleed air so as to not overpressurize the cabin.
A bullet hole is no problem. We undergo testing in a hyperbaric chamber, know how hypoxia effects us, and know our time of useful consciousness at various altitudes.
*A bullet hole, even through a window will not "suck" anybody out or make the aircraft uncontrollable. The only thing that will happen is the pilots will get the cabin altitude warning in the cockpit at a cabin altitude of about 10,000 feet and the oxygen masks would drop at a cabin altitude of around 14,000 feet.
*Aircraft actually have devices called outflow valves that regulate the pressure in the cabin. They routinely open part way during flight to let out excess bleed air so as to not overpressurize the cabin.
A bullet hole is no problem. We undergo testing in a hyperbaric chamber, know how hypoxia effects us, and know our time of useful consciousness at various altitudes.
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speakerguy79
New member
I had always heard they carried 357 Sig, not sure the make/model.
On a slightly different subject, in training, the SEALs and Delta guys found out that airliner seats are really good bullet stoppers. They train for airliner hostage rescues and have learned a lot about what will hurt a plane and what won't.
Pistol bullets will hurt the hijackers, but not the plane.
Pistol bullets will hurt the hijackers, but not the plane.
I just completed the "LEO FLying Armed" class that is required, along with other paperwork, before a non-fed or non-air marshall LEO can carry while flying. While I won't go into everything the course covered I can say that one of the things that was stressed, like JollyRoger said, was to not shoot at the floor. Other than that there's no special ammo or caliber requirements and rounds piercing windows or the body of the aircraft are not a concern.
Any round comprimised to not go through the jet's skin would also be compromised to not go through minimal body armor a terrorist might be wearing.
I hope for our sakes they are at least using ammo strong enough to penetrate minimal body armor
Plus I am sure that they are likely trianed that in close quarters they are to shoot to kill and that would mean head shots ot face shots to stop the attacker immediately.
I really hope nobody here can actually find out and post what they have-this is a public forum and frankly,I get sick of seeing so much security related information out in the open.
Hopefully,we won't know.
And neither will the bad guys.
I hope for our sakes they are at least using ammo strong enough to penetrate minimal body armor
Plus I am sure that they are likely trianed that in close quarters they are to shoot to kill and that would mean head shots ot face shots to stop the attacker immediately.
I really hope nobody here can actually find out and post what they have-this is a public forum and frankly,I get sick of seeing so much security related information out in the open.
Hopefully,we won't know.
And neither will the bad guys.
WC145 said:
First I must say that I agree, from speaking with FFDOs, that the HK USPc in 40 is the issue firearm.
A question for WC145...I found this page on the TSA website. Having gone through the "LEO Flying Armed" training, is this a list of firearms the TSA approves LEOs to carry, or is there any such list? I haven't been able to figure out what this TSA page is about.
Fly
By all accounts, including video/photos of their training, they use Sig 229s in .357 Sig. It's a reliable weapon which just happens to be the service weapon for the Secret Service, which the head of the program came from. It's also a weapon that the feds already have a contract for, so the program can get them without spending funds on testing, said funds thus being available for training.
There's no real OPSEC on this. The Air Marshalls allow journalists to see the training operations, as long as the agent's identity is protected. There is also no secrets about their qualification standards, etc. It's part of the deterrent factor. "You don't know who we are or where we are. You just
know we can take you out in a heartbeat if you are stupid enough to try something."
If you want to complain about something, complain about the requirements that the agents travel in business clothes while on duty. Nothing quite stands out like a guy in a suit on a Sunday flight. I understand they finally got that changed.
There's no real OPSEC on this. The Air Marshalls allow journalists to see the training operations, as long as the agent's identity is protected. There is also no secrets about their qualification standards, etc. It's part of the deterrent factor. "You don't know who we are or where we are. You just
know we can take you out in a heartbeat if you are stupid enough to try something."
If you want to complain about something, complain about the requirements that the agents travel in business clothes while on duty. Nothing quite stands out like a guy in a suit on a Sunday flight. I understand they finally got that changed.
Sturmgewehre
New member
David Armstrong
Moderator
Sig 229, 357 Sig caliber
In addition to at least one James Bond movie, I believe there was an episode of "Millennium" where an aircraft was brought down with several rounds through the hull from a restroom.
All hokem - but an excellent example of how totally bogus stuff depicted by Hollywood enters the public consciousness as "fact" - I believe it was brought up during congressional debates as a concern over armed pilots.
It would possibly be a legitimate concern if the plane's hull was made of crystal.
All hokem - but an excellent example of how totally bogus stuff depicted by Hollywood enters the public consciousness as "fact" - I believe it was brought up during congressional debates as a concern over armed pilots.
It would possibly be a legitimate concern if the plane's hull was made of crystal.
Superhouse 15
New member
Ammo
The FFDO's that shoot at the range where I work carry 180gr Gold Dot in their HKs. I was a bit surprised they didn't carry something a bit more frangible.
The FFDO's that shoot at the range where I work carry 180gr Gold Dot in their HKs. I was a bit surprised they didn't carry something a bit more frangible.