Federal .380 ACP 99gr HST in Clear Ballistics Gel.

I use to worry about the efficacy of .380 for self defense back four or more decades ago because it seemed I could sometimes have created more penetration spittin darts through a straw.

Now with modern ammo and current pistol reliability factors, I'm tickled pink with .380 keeping in mind the tactical limitations of the round. Just like I do with every other firearm type and caliber.
 
Blah, blah, blah,........if you like and carry a .380 pistol, this looks like a pretty decent load for it. If you don’t like or carry a .380 pistol, then it does not apply to you. You people get way too worked up over your biases for or against a certain caliber or load.
 
You people get way too worked up over your biases for or against a certain caliber or load.
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Mk70ss,

Well yes and no. I sometimes tire of the relentless admonitions from occasional yahoos at the range when I'm shooting a .380. They will all of a sudden appear and stand on their soapbox and announce "I would never carry anything under a 9 mm."

In one such case during a penis measuring contest a dude proceeded to tell me how his leg wound in Vietnam from a 7.62x39 AK round was worse than my arm wound from a .45 Mac-10 round. I pointed out that he was still walking around just fine on his leg and I was clearly shooting well with my arm!

Sometimes folks just start pumping their jaws over the dumbest things. ;)
 
In one such case during a penis measuring contest a dude proceeded to tell me how his leg wound in Vietnam from a 7.62x39 AK round was worse than my arm wound from a .45 Mac-10 round.
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That's pathetic. Some people take every opportunity possible to one-up someone else. They're like the guy who goes peeling out when the stop light turns green, and think "Yeah boy, I really showed him," but he's the only one who was racing. Moron.
 
I clicked on the XTP 380 test.

Looks a bit different than the shootingthebull results. On this site, the HST is the clear winner. The XTP didn't expand at in with denim.
 
Also, the 10mm results on the same sight had Magtech do almost the same expansion at 16" inches. 5 inch barrel.

I'd say the 380 is doing just fine...
 
Federal worked its usual magic with the .380ACP HST, but just not enough mass & velocity to work with, IMO, to get both great expansion and adequate penetration.

IIRC, even the FBI does not disqualify a cartridge that does not penetrate enough, it just doesn't score as many point or whatnot.

I would have liked less expansion and more penetration, closer to 18".

The older Luckygunner tests show the Hornady FTX averaging a bit more than 15" of pen with all 5 pills expanding. I was hoping Federal and its HST mojo could have pushed that a bit deeper.

Still, I think I would be inclined to a flat point / truncated cone FMJ in .380ACP.
 
Still, I think I would be inclined to a flat point / truncated cone FMJ in .380ACP.
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That's my plan, just got a box of Sig 100gr FMJ. They have a flattened tip which is about 0.190" diameter across the flat part. I'm more interested in the additional weight than the tip. The best part is $18.99 for a box of 50.

The original .45 ACP was a 200gr bullet going 900 fps. The Army wanted something heavier, so John Browning came up with 230gr bullet going 850 fps. Same approach, but on a larger scale.

That's where I got the idea for the reduced velocity .380 for SD thread, but I'm not JB so I got a lot of flack. tsk tsk tsk
 
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A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.

Everything you've heard about flat plates doesn't apply. It BEGINS at 44 magnum and only applies there with higher velocity is is more directed to RIFLE hunting rounds.
 
A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.
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That's my plan, just got a box of Sig 100gr FMJ. They have a flattened tip which is about 0.190" diameter across the flat part. I'm more interested in the additional weight than the tip. The best part is $18.99 for a box of 50.
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Cripes.
 
wcm said:
A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.

Everything you've heard about flat plates doesn't apply. It BEGINS at 44 magnum and only applies there with higher velocity is is more directed to RIFLE hunting rounds.
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Not sure you're right about that.

The two commonly cited benefits of a flat point vs a round or pointed shape upon impact are:
1. Larger crush area/cavity relative to RN/pointed projectile
2. Straighter tracking through medium

Maybe #1 is lost below some velocity X.

But #2 is valid for other projectiles/bodies moving through other media, even at much lower velocities.

The case I have most experience with is RC aircraft. A sharp leading edge is much more likely to be buffeted up or down and/or be more sensitive to pitch input than is a more blunt leading edge. BTDT, got the wreckage. That phenomenon is used / manipulated when folk scratch build RC aircraft, after they have a few under their belt.
 
I can
That is terrible penetration
Expansion doesn't make up for poor penetration
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Such performance from a BUG, is absolutely superb... Keep in mind these are tiny pistols that will never be of any use to anyone beyond a few yards distance, if not just a few feet distance!
 
Hello All,
I didn't see this mentioned within the thread but Ammo Quest did the best review on the .380 acp round, IMHO. The modern .380 acp is worthy of consideration for concealed carry or deep concealment. I've been shooting for nearly 50 yrs and have no reservations carrying a .380, btw.

1) In regards to the Federal HST, he found the round to be unacceptable in the .380 caliber due to under penetration. See Video.

2) The two brands which won out was Fiocchi Extrema and Precision One. All of the .380 rounds in XTP performed excellent (expansion/penetration) but those two stood out. The Fiocchi run flawlessly out of our Bersa Thunder 380's and it is what I carry in those. It is a phenomenal round in .380.
See Video.

3) He later tested the Lehigh XP in .380 and then declared it to be the best for that round. I personally do not agree with his conclusion though or the advertising hype by Lehigh or Underwood. You should also take it with a grain of salt as to how reliable a ballistic gel test is in determining a wound cavity. I personally only consider it viable for comparing or determining penetration.

I think wound cavity cannot be judged with ballistic gel tests and much of the advertising hype associated with the Lehigh/Underwood rounds is bogus. They state the following in regards to the XP round "creating a permanent wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets" but they offer absolutely no proof of such!

I purchased a box of Lehigh XP .380 and performed a simple test comparing them to the Fiocchi .380 Extrema. The flutes of the XP round is supposed to create a significant amount of "hydraulic energy" which is attributed to it's purported devastating wound cavity that supposedly exceeds most hollow points (as advertised). So consider the following.

*We are made up of mostly water. So I filled several milk jugs with water and shot them with the XP round and the Extrema round. I used the same gun for the test and shot at a distance of 10 ft. There was absolutely no comparison! The Fiocchi Extrema round completely and violently blew apart it's jug. The XP round simply made a nice entry and exit hole while barely even moving the jug. It was no better than what a FMJ would have done in regards to stopping power. I repeated the test and exact same results. I contacted Lehigh and Underwood several times noting such and requested their proof of XP performance. Neither ever responded or provided proof of their XP claims.

I use the Fiocchi Extrema in my .380's with full confidence. I use the Federal HST in my 9mm as that is a devastating round in that caliber. Hope this helps someone and stay safe.

God Bless,
Ralph
 
The XP round simply made a nice entry and exit hole while barely even moving the jug. It was no better than what a FMJ would have done in regards to stopping power. I repeated the test and exact same results. I contacted Lehigh and Underwood several times noting such and requested their proof of XP performance. Neither ever responded or provided proof of their XP claims.
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I'd do the test again but use Xteme DEFENDER, not PENETRATOR rounds. I tried Xtreme DEFENDER .380 vs a 'meat target'...pork ribs over a watermelon with 6 layers of denim over that..and it absolutely destroyed the melon.

I know only one test and I recognize the marketing behind ANY product but Lehigh is pretty clear about the differences and best uses for Defender vs Penetrator. The 6 watermelon 'test', alternating XD and XP..

YMMV and all that.
 
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Quote by USNRet93...."I'd do the test again but use Xteme DEFENDER, not PENETRATOR rounds. I tried Xtreme DEFENDER .380 vs a 'meat target'...pork ribs over a watermelon with 6 layers of denim over that..and it absolutely destroyed the melon.

I know only one test and I recognize the marketing behind ANY product but Lehigh is pretty clear about the differences and best uses for Defender vs Penetrator. The 6 watermelon 'test', alternating XD and XP."
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Hello USNRet93.

First, thanks for your service. My Dad served in both the Korean war (navy) as well as the Vietnam war (army) so here's a salute to the military!

In regards to the Lehigh XP and XD rounds. Yes, I know all of the marketing. I however would never choose the XD round at 65 gr. because it is to light for me as a self defense round. Especially when I can get the same results or even better with a much heavier and proven 90 gr hollow point.

If they made the XD in a 90gr or 95gr bullet I would consider it in the .380 round. It would also be legal in municipalities that have restrictions on hollow points. As it stands, the XTP round in .380 is proven to be a reliable round in regards to both expansion and penetration so that is what I keep in my .380's.

God Bless,
Ralph
 
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Flat points do nothing until rifle rounds.

Here's your data:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
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@ which point - I'll counter with...

That "flat point" is called the meplat...

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/The+Effects+Of+The+Meplat+On+Terminal+Ballistics.html

& Randy Garrett - who BTW, used to be a member here many moons ago.
Randy was/is a good guy & he makes great ammunition & is a strong believer in the "flat point" (large meplat) concept. My own person research and experience tend to support the large meplat idea.
 
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hal & wcm:

Informative articles.

wcm:

You article does not support your contention that "Flat points do nothing until rifle rounds."

My own experience with lower-velocity rounds indicates otherwise, with flat point projectiles causing more damage than round nose or pointed.
 
Hum...I don't think you read your article?

All the discussion in your article are rifle rounds. 458 is a rifle round.

The only mention of a 9mm size is the metplat has to be at least the size of 9mm. Flat. No 380/9mm/40/45 have a metplat that large. And that's the minimum. And we're still talking beyond pistol capable velocity required.

Just like I said. Flat surface doesn't do anything in anything below 44mag. And it has to be a hot 44mag (rifle fired) to start doing what you think it does.
 
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Pretty nice, but I'll stick with XTPs for my LCP. I'd much rather have 12-17" of penetration with moderate expansion, although I'm sure that the HST would get the job done in most cases.
 
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