FBI to 9mm

[mavracer]

The questions are whether the terminal ballistics of premium loads are adequate

Well first you're going to need to define adequate, and minimum does not equal adequate.

how well the different loads in similar guns can be used to put shots on target rapidly.

We keep coming back to this blanket statement, "everybody can shoot 9mm faster than a 40" which just like most blanket statements is just wrong much of the time. Some of the better designed 40s while nearly the same size add a oz or two to the slide weight effectively eliminating the effects from the recoil produced.

but you can see videos of tests of a number of premium rounds, and the results of tests on a number of others are available.

Oh I've seen plenty of tests and have been putting up with 30years of people cherry picking loads to support their agenda.
I have no doubt that there is a 9mm load that's better than a less than stellar 40 or 45 but HST vs HST, gold dots vs gold dots, ranger vs ranger or what ever apple vs apple 40 and 45 out perform 9mm.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by mavracer:

Well first you're going to need to define adequate, and minimum does not equal adequate.

Well. as Kraig points out, adequate for human attackers would not mean adequate for bear.

But for LEO use, the experts have offered their conclusions:

9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

Do we not believe that most of the premium line .40 and .45 rounds tested by the FBI were deemed adequate?

We keep coming back to this blanket statement, "everybody can shoot 9mm faster than a 40" which just like most blanket statements is just wrong much of the time. Some of the better designed 40s while nearly the same size add a oz or two to the slide weight effectively eliminating the effects from the recoil produced.

Really?

Rob Pincus made that statement, and he and his instructors observe more people shooting different defensive handguns every year than I have seen in my life.

The FBI's comment was more limited: "The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)." Emphasis added.

Oh I've seen plenty of tests and have been putting up with 30years of people cherry picking loads to support their agenda.

Sorry you have had to put up with it, but let's set aside older test results.

.

..but HST vs HST, gold dots vs gold dots, ranger vs ranger or what ever apple vs apple 40 and 45 out perform 9mm.

In terms of terminal ballistics, so one might think. But how much does it matter? How much do the disadvantages matter?

The FBI's answer:

Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Would you have us believe that you know more about the subject?

 

[mavracer]

Do we not believe that most of the premium line .40 and .45 rounds tested by the FBI were deemed adequate?

Nope it's the "outperforming most" I take issue with.

I have seen in my life.

I wouldn't assume everyone else's experience level is where yours is.

Sorry you have had to put up with it, but let's set aside older test results

It's sad that you think it ok to just round file 30+ years of experience and just buy "Rob Pincus said"

Would you have us believe that you know more about the subject?

I'm not a veterinarian but I know BS when I smell it

one might think

Maybe you should try that out

 

[manta49]

I'm not a veterinarian but I know BS when I smell it

Whats the BS you smell. ?

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by mavracer:

Nope it's the "outperforming most" I take issue with

You have seen the results?

In fairness, I too find that counterintuitive, but I have not been among those privileged to review the objective data.

It's sad that you think it ok to just round file 30+ years of experience...

You missed the point completely. The bullets of thirty, twenty, and fifteen years ago are not relevant today.

But--I have no idea what it is in your 30+ years of experience that makes you think that you are more qualified than FBI Training Division, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA.

Nor have you cited any performance data pertaining to the new rounds discussed in the recommendation.

...and just buy "Rob Pincus said"

The OP introduced the subject by citing another source.

I have researched the test results for several rounds, including the one I use.

I have enough training experience to have observed the greater rapidity of fire with combat accuracy that most people appear to be able to achieve with service-sized 9mm pistols than with larger calibers.

That point was first brought home to me when I was using a .45, which at the time I believed to be more effective as a defense round than some of the smaller service rounds, when people with 9MM service pistols outshot me in terms of rapidly of accurate fire. Some skill difference, but mostly physics..

I have now been shooting handguns for about 55 years, and have been studying them for longer than that. I was a real believer in Elmer's theories. I bought into the legends of the .45 and the Moros. But I had not really studied anything about what it would really take to stop a human assailant, such as putting several rounds into one in less than a second when he is moving at five meters per second at close range, until five plus years ago. Until one studies the internal anatomy and considers the stochastic nature of hitting vital parts timely when the target is moving, one may have a natural tendency to draw conclusions about defensive effectiveness from terminal ballistics alone. I did, and that was a big reason for my choice of a .45.

I'm not a veterinarian but I know BS when I smell it

We understand that you are skeptical, but it is not clear that your opinion is informed.

 

[zincwarrior]

Here's a thought, we can discuss the topic like adults with snide commentary or direct insults eh?

It, like many things, may be a situation where people's opinions cannot be changed, and people may have good faith differences of opinion.
Lets remember that shall we.

And you're all wrong. The definitive pistol caliber is a sawed off blunderbuss.

 

[mavracer]

You have seen the results?

I've seen and studied plenty of test results, none that would support his statement.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Some of those do choose other calibers. Las I heard, mas uses a 9MM for iDPA, and Tom carrie a .40 that holds 15 rounds plus a back-up gun.

Uh, I use a 9mm in IDPA to, but that's a GAME. Mas uses that for a GAME.

And Tom carries what he feels is the largest he can control (and note it's not a 9mm.) And I'm fine with that. In fact I'm fine with the 9mm IF THAT IS ALL YOU CAN CONTROL.

BTW, I pack a Glock 26.. 9mm, and yes I've owed and carried Glocks 27 and 33. I found when shooting one handed in such small guns 9mm was optimal for ME. And in IDPA I use a 26 for local matches but a Glock 22, in .40, for state matches.

And I also have a Glock 34, set up in .357 Sig, if I need a bigger one for serious use. 125gr slug at 1500-1600 is more of my liking but I can only control it one hand if I use the larger 34, not my 26 size gun.

Deaf

 

[Theohazard]

And Tom carries what he feels is the largest he can control (and note it's not a 9mm.) And I'm fine with that. In fact I'm fine with the 9mm IF THAT IS ALL YOU CAN CONTROL.

The "biggest you can control" argument is a completely ridiculous one. Like others have pointed out, "control" isn't an all-or-nothing term. I'm 6' and 230 lbs., so I can control some pretty big calibers. But -- all other things being equal -- I control a 9mm better than I do a .40 or a .45. And considering the difference between the real-world effectiveness of those three calibers is so tiny that it doesn't make a measureable difference in the outcomes of real shootings, I prefer 9mm because it's cheaper to practice with and my follow-up shots are faster.

And considering the laws of physics apply equally to everyone, everyone will experience less recoil with a 9mm than they will with a .40 or .45 using similar types of ammo out of the same type of handgun. And considering relative ammo prices are pretty universal also, 9mm range ammo will almost always be cheaper for everyone as well.

Pick whichever defensive caliber you like, but I'm tired of all the ridiculous myths about certain duty calibers giving you noticeably more "stopping power" than others. Training matters more than anything else, so pick the duty caliber you can practice the most with, and then practice a lot with it.

 

[fastbolt]

Tempest in the caliber teapot.

I once showed a swat guy that I could consistently accurately double tap using one of my .44 revolvers, loaded with factory 240gr or 315gr factory JHP's, faster than he could double tap his issued 9mm (using 147gr JHP's). Granted, one of the .44's I was using had been MagNaPorted, which tends to help with muzzle whip (but not force delivered to the palm). He still had a hard time with the .44's, though, and he was a lot larger and stronger than me. (But I'd been a revolver shooter for a long time, which was an advantage.)

I no longer carry that .44 off-duty, or my other .44's, though. Too much oomph and penetrative potential for an urban environment ... not to mention OWB & IWB are less comfortable with the big frame wheelguns ... and I enjoy an advantage when using the 9's, .40's & .45's of being able to realize even faster accurate and controllable shot strings (split times).

The handgun size, weight and design can have an understandable influence in this regard, as well.

The FBI has their reasons for wanting to transition back to 9mm. Their business, their prerogative. I work with men & women who carry 9, .40 & .45 duty weapons, either issued or optionally purchased. I'm more concerned with how each shooter does with what they carry and use. Their caliber preference is up to them. I may occasionally point out some obvious things when it comes to controllability and a particular shooter/gun/caliber combo, but I don't make the decisions for them.

What happens in other agencies, whether it's the local, state or fed levels? Not my concern. Nowadays, after all these years, it's not even all that interesting as a matter of trivia.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

and I enjoy an advantage when using the 9's, .40's & .45's of being able to realize even faster accurate and controllable shot strings (split times).

So, you'll agree with x amount of training and y amount of natural skill, a person will almost universally shoot the 9mm faster. Most agencies make decisions on "the least common denominator" and a specified training regimen and training budget.

 

[crashdummy]

Texas Department of Public Safety is giving up their 357 Sigs in favor of the 9mm. More magazine capacity and less recoil. Seems that the new female recruits flinch and miss a lot .....Everyone must be issued identical weapons.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I control a 9mm better than I do a .40 or a .45.

If the control of the 9mm is just a bit more than the .40 or .45, but both controlled well enough for defense, then go with the bigger round.

Texas Department of Public Safety is giving up their 357 Sigs in favor of the 9mm. More magazine capacity and less recoil. Seems that the new female recruits flinch and miss a lot .....Everyone must be issued identical weapons.

The DPS here in Texas admitted it was more of a cost cutting measure than anything else. They felt the guns wore out quicker in the .357 format and the 9mm was more-or-less good enough. Unfortuanty the 9mm S&Ws have not faired so well.

But do note, when they got the .357 Sig, their spokesmen said they were ok with the .45 but wanted the 'lightning bolt' effect they had with the .357 Magnum (that is the 125gr load at 1400 or so fps.)

Deaf

 

[Jim243]

I doubt the FBI are considering a change of caliber to save a few dollars. If that was the case they would not have changed from 9mm in the first place. They are looking the best all round caliber that meets their needs best, that is 9mm.

And what needs is that??? Strange that Homeland Security has adopted the 40 S&W the SOG and SEALs of the DOD uses the 45 ACP while the majority of the other arm services still use the 9mm.

If not for economic reasons, I suppose the reduction of their budgets because of sequestration had nothing to do with it and that a larger reduction of man power would have been more preferable to them or maybe a reduction of the number of bullet proof vests they could buy or maybe a reduction in travel cost to cover oversea travel or local expense accounts for their agents.

How anyone can make the statement that is is NOT for economic reasons is beyond me. Reguardless of their reasons it does have the effect of reducing their training and operating cost.

Jim

 

[Theohazard]

If the control of the 9mm is just a bit more than the .40 or .45, but both controlled well enough for defense, then go with the bigger round.

Again, what does "well enough" mean to you? 9mm has less recoil so it has faster follow-up shots. Period. No matter how well you can "control" a .40 or .45, you can "control" a 9mm better. Again, there's no artificial threshold for "control", and it's not an all-or-nothing term.

9mm is also cheaper for most people in most situations. And since there's no scientifically measurable difference between those calibers when it comes to the results of an actual real-world gunfight, why would I go "up" to a caliber that gives me no measurable advantage, yet makes me shoot a little slower and costs significantly more to practice with?

 

[Jim243]

why would I go "up" to a caliber that gives me no measurable advantage

That might be an over simplification, I use both 45 Auto and 9 MM for personal protection. I do however expect different results from each caliber. With the 45 Auto I shoot center mass expecting the 230 grains of lead to smash through the sternum and injure or take out the heart. With the faster and lighter 115 grain 9 MM I expect it to be deflected by the ribs and enter through the lungs creating a sucking wound that would incapacitate an attacker, also I am much more comfortable with doing head shots with the 9 mm than with the 45 Auto.

As to control ability, I find the recoil of both to be about the same. Most people equate the 45 Auto with the 5 inch 1911 and it's heavier mass, which is harder to control. I use a 3.6 inch semi-auto 45 ACP which is just as easy to control as my 3.8 inch 9 mm. To be totally honest, it is easier and more comfortable to carry the smaller 45 Auto than the slightly larger 9 mm.

I consider that a very good advantage even thou I have fewer rounds in the 45.

Jim

 

[mavracer]

why would I go "up" to a caliber that gives me no measurable advantage

If it makes you feel better to believe this wonderful, but why then stop at 9mm?

 

[kraigwy]

What's more important then "the biggest gun you can handle" is what is comfortable enough that its with you 24/7.

A small gun in the pocket beats a big gun in the truck every time.

If you're gun is so big, you have to take it off and lay on the mantle when you get home, its too big.

I have several larger guns but my little 38 J-frame is my constant companion.

I have confidence in shooting it, and the only time its in the way and I have to take it out of my pocket is when I shoot prone at rifle matches. I just slip it in my shooting school, still in reach.

I use the same bullet (Lvman's 150 gr. LSWC 358477) I used in my Model 28 Service Revolver in LE.

I know people's experience varies, but based on mine, this bullet suits me, even in my 38.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

As to control ability, I find the recoil of both to be about the same.

Thats great. What about the officers and CCW people often shooting less than a hundred rounds a year. Do they think the recoil is the same? That is who needs to be considered when making huge agency purchases. All the "gun guys" who can shoot 10mm faster than the lowest common denominator could shott 22lr, aren't a consideration. That simple.

I am much more comfortable with doing head shots with the 9 mm than with the 45 Auto.

Assuming you are talking single aimed shots and not some sort of pattern:
Recoil is after the bullet leaves the barrel. If you aren't flinching there shouldn't be a difference for singles. In most cases there is though.

Irrelevant because everything in this thread is now obsolete#Capitalism

 

[Deaf Smith]

Again, what does "well enough" mean to you?

Once you are past .25 splits (that is 4 rounds a second) and still hit COM at say 5 yards, well that is "well enough". One does NOT need to machine gun their targets. Lots of rounds do not mean lots of hits. And it takes a slight amount of time for an opponent to react to being hit, Shooting them a bunch (presuming you don't miss) does not guarantee they drop , but it does take time and skill to shoot them a bunch, time one may not have.

9mm is also cheaper for most people in most situations.

Cheaper? If they buy store bought ammo, none are 'cheap'. If they reload, or buy factory reloads in very large bulk, all are AFFORDABLE. And that is what one needs to look at. Being able to afford the weapon, gear, ammo, time to practice, and place to practice cost. The cost of say, 100 rounds of factory-reloads per month is not all that much for any cartridge, .45, .40, 9mm, etc.

And since there's no scientifically measurable difference between those calibers when it comes to the results of an actual real-world gunfight,

YES THERE IS. Been done for years by 'morgue monsters' who poured over autopsies and police reports to find out number of COM hits, number of those who dropped with just one COM hit, number that did NOT drop with one hit, exact cartridge used, range used, size of attacker, etc...

And they found, shockingly, bigger bullets TEND to stop better. Faster bullets TEND to stop better. Better constructed bullets (like JHPs) TEND to stop better. Good shot placement TENDS to stop better.

Some rounds, like the 125gr. JHP .357 Magnum at an honest 1450 fps, do go around 90 percent in one shot stops. And that is why the Texas DPS adopted the .357 Sig. And it was a cost cutting move (admitted by the DPS) when they went to the 9mm.

Deaf