hereExactly where did Dr. Riviello say what you attributed to him?
Exactly where did the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health publish what you attributed to it?
But when OldMarksman quoted Pincus, OldMarksman linked in post 23 to his source for the quote.
In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.
Well, it wasn't his opinion. And to call it "jaded" is uncalled for.... it's just Pincus' jaded opinion
Phooey. Your link (http://thefiringline.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6169791) takes us to a TFL reply page.mavracer said:hereExactly where did Dr. Riviello say what you attributed to him?
More phooey.mavracer said:Exactly where did the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health publish what you attributed to it?
and here
...The minimum diameter of 35 cranial wounds produced by .22, .25, and .38-caliber bullet was measured. The relationship of minimum wound diameter to bullet caliber was examined using a one way analysis of variance. Fisher's least significant difference test revealed no significant difference between .22-caliber and .25-caliber wounds, while the .38-caliber wounds were significantly different (P < .001) from .22-caliber and .25-caliber wounds....
mavracer said:...The forensic pathologists cannot determine caliber from wounds even between the smaller 32s and 380s...
...This study aims to compare the morphologies of gunshot entrance holes caused by.40-caliber Smith & Wesson (S&W), .380-caliber, and 9×19-mm Luger bullets. A fully metal-jacketed.40 S&W projectile, a fully metal-jacketed.380 projectile, and a fully metal-jacketed 9×19-mm Luger projectile were computationally fired at the glabellar region of the finite element model from a distance of 10 cm, at perpendicular incidence. The results show different morphologies in the entrance holes produced by the three bullets, using the same skull at the same shot distance....
It's apparent that you're out of your depth here.
It most certainly is.Well, it wasn't his opinion.
So the question, if you really want to keep bringing this up, would be whether the bullet destroys--wounds--creates a permanent cavity--in proportion to its diameter in whatever it hits.
Does it?
I alluded to this before, in the comparison between the .38 LRN, wadcutter, and semi-wadcutter. I am under the impression that a long tapered bullet may not create as large a permanent wound channel in elastic human flesh than would a bullet of the same diameter with a different ogive.
That seems reasonable to me.
Is it?
And let me expand on this the better (more accurate) penetration models will have an adjustment for bullet shape and even take into account bullet deformation(expansion) and leave you with and effective diameter, of course this is of little consequence when talking about your premium SD rounds as they will be similarly factored so a 20% larger expanded bullet will still leave a 20% larger hole and with a similar increase in momentum will penetrate to the same depth.Of course meplat matters and better penetration models will take that into account, of course also if they are the same weight and velocity a larger meplat will penetrate less.
MacPherson has included an outline of the contents of his book's chapters in the introduction, as well as providing an excellent summary at the end of each chapter. He exposes and corrects common fallacies -- such as the presumption that kinetic energy determines bullet effect. In that section we find:
• Newton's laws of motion describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships
• Damage is done by stress (force), not energy
No. It simply demonstrated that the citation you offered as evidence supporting your claim was not, in fact, evidence supporting your claim.mavracer said:So let me get some things straight here.
The fact that you might maybe be able to get an idea of caliber from a frontal cranial bullet wound is enough proof that you can distinguish caliber from all tissue?....
My supposition (regarding the effects of LRN bullets vs wadcutters) was about the diameter of the permanent wound channel, and not about penetration.Of course meplat matters and better penetration models will take that into account, of course also if they are the same weight and velocity a larger meplat will penetrate less.
There you go with that again....the better (more accurate) penetration models will have an adjustment for bullet shape and even take into account bullet deformation(expansion) and leave you with and effective diameter, of course this is of little consequence when talking about your premium SD rounds as they will be similarly factored so a 20% larger expanded bullet will still leave a 20% larger hole and with a similar increase in momentum will penetrate to the same depth.
True fact.Newton's laws of motion describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships
Well, not exactly. Stress is force per unit area.Damage is done by stress (force), not energy
(Emphasis added)In Newton there was no distinction (as shown above) between speed, motion, momentum and energy but quantitas motus (momentum) was the prevailing concept and it was proven to be conserved in all situations, therefore Leibniz' vis viva was considered a threat to the whole system. Only later it was acknowledged that both energy and momentum, being different entities, could be conserved (by Bošković and later (1748) by d'Alembert).
We can thank Émilie du Châtelet for the modern..understanding of kinetic energy – user121330
There is no energy formula ..in the discovery of conservation of energy are Joule and... – Ben Crowell
That's overlooking historical facts (Joule was not concerned with KE): soon after Leibniz' death, the quadratic relation was confirmed by experiments independently by the Italian Poleni in 1719 and the Dutch Gravesande in 1722, who dropped balls from varying heights onto soft clay and found that balls with twice speed produced an indentation four times deeper. The latter informed M.me du Châtelet of his results and she publicized them. Two centuries later, after Joule had shown that mechanical work can be transformed in heat, Helmholz suggested that the lost energy, in inelastic collisions, might have been transformed in heat.
But when it comes to analyzing penetration in human bodies, it ain't quite that simple. That's because not all of the body is solid. To the extent that some of the body behaves more like an incompressible fluid, some of the forces on the bullet are in fact a function of momentum--just as in the case of a canoe paddle in water, or a helicopter rotor blade in air. In those situations, things relate to the changes in the velocity vectors and to the masses of the particles of the fluid.
Just for the record you are disagreeing with the guys the guys who wrote the book on this subject.Well, not exactly. Stress is force per unit area
I doubt the FBI are considering a change of caliber to save a few dollars. If that was the case they would not have changed from 9mm in the first place. They are looking the best all round caliber that meets their needs best, that is 9mm.The FBI's move to the 9mm is purely economics.
I don't see any reason to suspect that. Their recommendations are intended for numerous agencies over which they have no budget authority at all.The FBI's move to the 9mm is purely economics.
Yes, and they go on to expand on that by pointing out the fallacy of the one shot stop.Their justification is a smokescreen since they tell you there is no such thing as 'stopping power'
"Amounts to"? They list, among "wounding factors", shot placement, penetration, and permanent cavity, in that order of importance....but then give you a list of criteria which amounts to a yardstick to measure stopping power!
Where do you see that?Ironically near the top of the list is the diameter of the bullet.
That's up to you. I do.So I give no weight to the new FBI pronouncements.
The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.
"Amounts to"? They list, among "wounding factors", shot placement, penetration, and permanent cavity, in that order of importance.
Where do you see that?
But sorry, my wife, who has been a ER trauma 1 nurse, CV-OR nurse, head of CV nursing, and has seen many gun shot wounds says the holes close up due to the elasticity of the tissue BUT the damage is there. Larger things damage more. If that was not true then a .32 ACP would do fine as there is no difference in damage, right? No reason the FBI should not recommend a .32 ACP FMJ.
Now with all due respect to Rob Pincus, he ain't the only trainer in the world. Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Farnam, etc.. might not agree with him on the 9mm being the best thing since sliced bread.
You might be shocked to find a lot of trainers say to pick the most powerful weapon you can control (and conceal if need be.)
Deaf
Just what bullet developement is exclusive to the 9mm?Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
I'd love to see a link to these tests please?9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
Some of those do choose other calibers. Las I heard, mas uses a 9MM for iDPA, and Tom carrie a .40 that holds 15 rounds plus a back-up gun.Now with all due respect to Rob Pincus, he ain't the only trainer in the world. Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Farnam, etc.. might not agree with him on the 9mm being the best thing since sliced bread.
Wouldn't mean anything to me. "You can control" is not a go-/no-go proposition. The question is speed of controlled fire.You might be shocked to find a lot of trainers say to pick the most powerful weapon you can control (and conceal if need be.)
Probably none. You can get Winchester PDX 1 bonded premium-grade jHP loads that meet the FBI test protocols in 9MM, .357 SIG, .40, and .45.Just what bullet developement is exclusive to the 9mm?
Wanna second-guess 'em? I don't know if you can get a "link to these tests", but you can see videos of tests of a number of premium rounds, and the results of tests on a number of others are available.I'd love to see a link to these tests please?
True. The recommendation is for law enforcement in general.I never could understand why people believe the FBI is the end all to info on firearms, they aren't.
They have their mission, local PDs have theirs. They may or may not be similar.