Please remember the Bureau has always had an officially issued/government property handgun (currently the SA's choice in .40 S&W Glocks: 23 or 22), but has also permitted the use of a wide-range of officially approved/privately owned handguns. Sigs, H&Ks, various 1911A1s, revolvers of several types, etc. are therefore in sanctioned use, although not issued.
FBI Standard Issue - What is your final answer?
- Thread starter rock_jock
- Start date
David Scott
New member
If we're counting, Florida State Troopers carry Beretta 92s, our County Sheriff issues big S&W autos (I suspect they're .45ACP), and local city cops carry Glocks in .40. The retired cops I know carry a Glock 19, a S&W Model 65, a Walther PPK/S, and a SIG P239.
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
Wow, for $2400 it better be good...
Just finished reading the SOF article on the new Springfield FBI HRT pistol....
After picking up my jaw from the ground, I now realize where my taxpayer dollars go to. $2400 for a pistol? Keyrist! How about teaching them to be better shots? Or more range time? Sorry, but I fail to see how there is anything on this 1911 clone that cannot be had for $1500, or 95% should be available on a $1000 gun. Call me crazy.
Spark
Just finished reading the SOF article on the new Springfield FBI HRT pistol....
After picking up my jaw from the ground, I now realize where my taxpayer dollars go to. $2400 for a pistol? Keyrist! How about teaching them to be better shots? Or more range time? Sorry, but I fail to see how there is anything on this 1911 clone that cannot be had for $1500, or 95% should be available on a $1000 gun. Call me crazy.
Spark
Golly, I thought this thread had been closed since I opened it in January. But since there are some new posts, let me ask, why didn't the HRT just go with the Glock 21 if they wanted the power of the .45? Surely it couldn't be a reliability issue. Glocks are extremely reliable, plus the other special agents carry Glocks.
CastleBravo
New member
Last I checked the FBI now uses the full power 165gr Golden Saber in .40S&W... they have some joint contract with another federal agency to procure 'em. Used to be the down-loaded 165gr Hydra-Shok. Of course, the FBI probably buys so much ammo that who knows what you'll actually get as a normal SA?
All this stuff about monster 10mm recoil is relative. From a 1076 (aka heavy as hell), full power 10mm probably feels about the same or better than hot .40S&W from a little, lightweight Glock 23. A Glock 20C or Delta Elite seems nicer to shoot to me than the 23 I used to have. Great gun, but "snappy" recoil from the light weight.
JMHO, but dropping $2400 on a sidearm is loony. How much of that mark-up was needed to make it as reliable as a Glock 21 for 1/4 the price? And people wonder why the 1911 has a rep for needing to be customized with tons of $$$ to work with decent reliability... [Hey, *MY* used Delta Elite works great with most ammo, anyway
]
As for the P13 debacle... well, that kinda speaks for itself.
All this stuff about monster 10mm recoil is relative. From a 1076 (aka heavy as hell), full power 10mm probably feels about the same or better than hot .40S&W from a little, lightweight Glock 23. A Glock 20C or Delta Elite seems nicer to shoot to me than the 23 I used to have. Great gun, but "snappy" recoil from the light weight.
JMHO, but dropping $2400 on a sidearm is loony. How much of that mark-up was needed to make it as reliable as a Glock 21 for 1/4 the price? And people wonder why the 1911 has a rep for needing to be customized with tons of $$$ to work with decent reliability... [Hey, *MY* used Delta Elite works great with most ammo, anyway
]As for the P13 debacle... well, that kinda speaks for itself.
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
Didn't check...
I was just looking at the price tag at the end of the article. Still insane, IMHO. $1500 is a bit more reasonable, but WOW.
Spark
I was just looking at the price tag at the end of the article. Still insane, IMHO. $1500 is a bit more reasonable, but WOW.
Spark
ReadyOnTheRight
New member
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-why.shtml
Springfield Armory says that the FBI chose them for a contract.
"FBI Chooses Springfield's 1911-A1!
When the FBI decided they wanted 1911s as their sidearm of choice, they chose Springfield Armory. Of the many famous manufacturers and custom shops vying for the coveted FBI pistol contract, only the Springfield 1911 was able to meet and exceed the rigorous testing and production requirements set by the Bureau. Outstanding performance in the accuracy test, 20,000 round reliability "torture test" and the drop, throw and saltwater immersion and corrosion tests, made Springfield the FBI's hands-down winner. "
It seems that the FBI spreads the wealth.
Springfield Armory says that the FBI chose them for a contract.
"FBI Chooses Springfield's 1911-A1!
When the FBI decided they wanted 1911s as their sidearm of choice, they chose Springfield Armory. Of the many famous manufacturers and custom shops vying for the coveted FBI pistol contract, only the Springfield 1911 was able to meet and exceed the rigorous testing and production requirements set by the Bureau. Outstanding performance in the accuracy test, 20,000 round reliability "torture test" and the drop, throw and saltwater immersion and corrosion tests, made Springfield the FBI's hands-down winner. "
It seems that the FBI spreads the wealth.
?
...
Guest
1. Glocks aren't the most reliable pistols there are.
2. The Springfield Armory Professional literally makes the Glock look like a toy. It totally blows it out of the water in accuracy and durability. Its worth the price tag for the craftsmanship, but many don't know what that is exactly and thus think that the Glock would have been just as good a choice.
2. The Springfield Armory Professional literally makes the Glock look like a toy. It totally blows it out of the water in accuracy and durability. Its worth the price tag for the craftsmanship, but many don't know what that is exactly and thus think that the Glock would have been just as good a choice.
What I see mostly issued by the Bureau, is the Glock's
as previously mentioned; or the "Professional TRP" S/A
.45 by Springfield. However, I have been told that senior
field agents are allowed a choice!
So, its still
possible to find Smith & Wesson model 10's on some of
the old timer's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
as previously mentioned; or the "Professional TRP" S/A
.45 by Springfield. However, I have been told that senior
field agents are allowed a choice!
So, its stillpossible to find Smith & Wesson model 10's on some of
the old timer's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Cowdogpete
New member
I don't particularly put much weight on what any LE Agency chooses. The choice is quite often made with a major emphasis on price.
When ever you see a cop (of any caliber) and you talk guns with them, ask them if their "issue" gun is what they WANT to carry. I regularly here "no, I'd rather carry a....."
DPS here carries sigs. And I know a lot of the officers wouldn't trade them. Local city cops carry anything they want. Texas Rangers carry what they want and seem to be dominated heavliy by 1911 Colts.
Food for thought and interesting conversation.....
When ever you see a cop (of any caliber) and you talk guns with them, ask them if their "issue" gun is what they WANT to carry. I regularly here "no, I'd rather carry a....."
DPS here carries sigs. And I know a lot of the officers wouldn't trade them. Local city cops carry anything they want. Texas Rangers carry what they want and seem to be dominated heavliy by 1911 Colts.
Food for thought and interesting conversation.....
CB,
Just how much do you have tied up in that Dane Burns Delta of yours?
Wolfgang over at 1911forum.com posted this email he received from Springfield re: the Pro model:
Just how much do you have tied up in that Dane Burns Delta of yours?
Wolfgang over at 1911forum.com posted this email he received from Springfield re: the Pro model:
"Officially," the Bureau has transitioned to the .40 G-22 and G-23.
But as fed168 and buzz_knox noted, there are numerous Sigs in 9mm and .40 and Smith 10mm 1076s still out there, the latter usually found in the holsters of the more senior agents.
A local agent who is also part of their SWAT unit now carries the tricked-out Springfield .45 1911.
Bottomline: a variety of handguns are carried by field agents, provided they've qualified with them.
But as fed168 and buzz_knox noted, there are numerous Sigs in 9mm and .40 and Smith 10mm 1076s still out there, the latter usually found in the holsters of the more senior agents.
A local agent who is also part of their SWAT unit now carries the tricked-out Springfield .45 1911.
Bottomline: a variety of handguns are carried by field agents, provided they've qualified with them.
Buford Boone
New member
Contract Guns
The FBI, like many Federal Agencies, is REQUIRED to purchase certain things off a contract. There is a dollar amount associated with this requirement (I don't remember it off the top of my head).
When a contract has expired there are only a couple of options:
1.) Purchase off another Federal contract, provided that it has the depth necessary.
2.) Conduct a procurement to award another contract.
Based on the number of pistols we need, the most likely scenario is to conduct a procurement. That is how we began issuing Glocks. A competition was held. Glocks won.
During a procurement, we have to notify, through the Commerce Business Daily, our intention of conducting a procurement. We have to specify what we want in a pistol (or ammunition) and allow interested manufacturers to submit their proposals.
Testing is then conducted, according to the test plan laid out in the request for proposal. The testing is strictly followed.
Whatever performs the best is awarded a contract. Last time it was the Glock 22 and 23, for general issue. The Springfield pistol won the SWAT contract.
Contracts generally run for one year with four renewable 1-year terms. By law, they cannot be extended indefinately.
It would be far easier if we could just purchase whatever we wanted. It is much better, however, to define the performance we desire and test to see what actually performs best.
Unfortunately, this means that the next contract may see us changing guns, again.
Obviously, it would not be prudent to change every agent's gun every five years. For example, if the "Broken Arrow 2003" happens to win the next competition, that doesn't mean the Glocks are no longer servicable. It just means that the "BA-2003" will be the weapon issued to New Agents and used to replace weapons taken out of service.
We have to purchase ammunition in a similar manner.
Anyone that wants to keep track of what we, or any other Federal Agency, are doing can subscribe to the "Commerce Business Daily". I don't have their address, but would bet an Internet search would locate it for you.
The current system results in our having several types of weapons in the field. It also assures that we take a look at our requirements on a regular basis. This is a good thing. Technology is always changing. We are also continually learning (I know some of you will find this hard to believe).
Whatever wins is not necessarily the best. It is, however the best of whatever was submitted for our testing. An interesting point is that we can't request anything be submitted. We can only include that which the Manufacturers submit.
Hope that helps to clear things up.
The FBI, like many Federal Agencies, is REQUIRED to purchase certain things off a contract. There is a dollar amount associated with this requirement (I don't remember it off the top of my head).
When a contract has expired there are only a couple of options:
1.) Purchase off another Federal contract, provided that it has the depth necessary.
2.) Conduct a procurement to award another contract.
Based on the number of pistols we need, the most likely scenario is to conduct a procurement. That is how we began issuing Glocks. A competition was held. Glocks won.
During a procurement, we have to notify, through the Commerce Business Daily, our intention of conducting a procurement. We have to specify what we want in a pistol (or ammunition) and allow interested manufacturers to submit their proposals.
Testing is then conducted, according to the test plan laid out in the request for proposal. The testing is strictly followed.
Whatever performs the best is awarded a contract. Last time it was the Glock 22 and 23, for general issue. The Springfield pistol won the SWAT contract.
Contracts generally run for one year with four renewable 1-year terms. By law, they cannot be extended indefinately.
It would be far easier if we could just purchase whatever we wanted. It is much better, however, to define the performance we desire and test to see what actually performs best.
Unfortunately, this means that the next contract may see us changing guns, again.
Obviously, it would not be prudent to change every agent's gun every five years. For example, if the "Broken Arrow 2003" happens to win the next competition, that doesn't mean the Glocks are no longer servicable. It just means that the "BA-2003" will be the weapon issued to New Agents and used to replace weapons taken out of service.
We have to purchase ammunition in a similar manner.
Anyone that wants to keep track of what we, or any other Federal Agency, are doing can subscribe to the "Commerce Business Daily". I don't have their address, but would bet an Internet search would locate it for you.
The current system results in our having several types of weapons in the field. It also assures that we take a look at our requirements on a regular basis. This is a good thing. Technology is always changing. We are also continually learning (I know some of you will find this hard to believe).
Whatever wins is not necessarily the best. It is, however the best of whatever was submitted for our testing. An interesting point is that we can't request anything be submitted. We can only include that which the Manufacturers submit.
Hope that helps to clear things up.
Blue Duck357
New member
Buford Boone, thank you for the very interesting post.
While I personally might like a "Carry whatever you want" rule I can see where qualification and logistics could become a nightmare. 5 kinds of ammo to bring and it's kind of hard to design a course of fire and rate two individuals pass or fail when ones using a G-22 or custom 1911 and the other a 2" revolver.
It sounds like the FBI is such a muddle (for good or bad) because of how they buy as opposed to most PD's. When most larger LE agencies buy it's normally enough of the new type of gun for everybody plus a lot of extra's for the expected crop of new officers for several years to come.
Everybody comes in turns in thier old stuff gets trained on the new stuff, Voila! near instant transition. Course if they find out what they bought is crap or something new and better comes out in 3 months your kinda screwed with that method. Also maybe not good for an officer if that particular model doesn't fit him well but certainly no two page threads over "What do xxxx carry??"
While I personally might like a "Carry whatever you want" rule I can see where qualification and logistics could become a nightmare. 5 kinds of ammo to bring and it's kind of hard to design a course of fire and rate two individuals pass or fail when ones using a G-22 or custom 1911 and the other a 2" revolver.
It sounds like the FBI is such a muddle (for good or bad) because of how they buy as opposed to most PD's. When most larger LE agencies buy it's normally enough of the new type of gun for everybody plus a lot of extra's for the expected crop of new officers for several years to come.
Everybody comes in turns in thier old stuff gets trained on the new stuff, Voila! near instant transition. Course if they find out what they bought is crap or something new and better comes out in 3 months your kinda screwed with that method. Also maybe not good for an officer if that particular model doesn't fit him well but certainly no two page threads over "What do xxxx carry??"
You may be interested in a book by an FBI sniper still on active service. Don't recall his name, and the book is down in my car, but the title is, "Cold Zero". I got it at the library, and am only through the first chapter, but browsed it, and the author mentions the .45 autos (probably the Springfields, which have been in much-heralded use for a few years) and a Browning Hi-Power. The sniping rifle is a Rem. 700 with a Birdsong finish on the bbl. (.308). The HRT snipers train with USMC snipers.
I also read retired Special Agent Candace (Candice?) DeLong's book, but don't recall the title. ("Special Agent"?) Look for it under author. She misspelled SIG-Sauer (left out the "e") and expressed some anti-gun sentiments. It is an interesting book, but she says that few agents have any fondness for guns, and that many don't like them in the hands of the public. I think she exaggerates, but, especially during the Clinton years, the Bureau probably has attracted many repressive persons. I haven't gotten as far as Waco in the sniper's book. Be interesting to see how he covers the Bureau's status on that one! DeLong sees herself as glamourous and is a bit dramatic at times.
The few agents I've seen at public ranges had SIG P-226's. Ammo was subsonic 9mm, I think Ranger Talon or similar. I wouldn't want to rely on that sort of ammo. Given it or a .45 with Golden Saber ammo, I'd take the P-220 .45! It's my understanding that both Golden Saber and Hydra-Shok are authorized, and the Bureau buys by bid. So which ammo is in use depends on which company won the last bid.
Lone Star
I also read retired Special Agent Candace (Candice?) DeLong's book, but don't recall the title. ("Special Agent"?) Look for it under author. She misspelled SIG-Sauer (left out the "e") and expressed some anti-gun sentiments. It is an interesting book, but she says that few agents have any fondness for guns, and that many don't like them in the hands of the public. I think she exaggerates, but, especially during the Clinton years, the Bureau probably has attracted many repressive persons. I haven't gotten as far as Waco in the sniper's book. Be interesting to see how he covers the Bureau's status on that one! DeLong sees herself as glamourous and is a bit dramatic at times.
The few agents I've seen at public ranges had SIG P-226's. Ammo was subsonic 9mm, I think Ranger Talon or similar. I wouldn't want to rely on that sort of ammo. Given it or a .45 with Golden Saber ammo, I'd take the P-220 .45! It's my understanding that both Golden Saber and Hydra-Shok are authorized, and the Bureau buys by bid. So which ammo is in use depends on which company won the last bid.
Lone Star
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