Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn't Intend It for Civilians

[TimSr]

When you look through history, it is hard to find any firearms concepts that were NOT first designed as "weapons of war".

 

[HiBC]

I recently listened to a radio news report about Remington and Bushmaster and the lawsuit they are fighting.Something about providing civilians with a weapon of war.

Remarkable how the language of the Stoner family coincides with the language of the plaintiff's case against Remington.

Might be an pre-emptive statement to protect Mr Stoner's legacy.

I don't like the politics of the Stoner statement,but is Bushmaster/Remington lose,where does it stop?

And,yes,early 60's there was an AR-15 in our house with a SN < 4000.
The Air Force was evaluating the rifle.It was not a US military rifle yet.

IIRC,it was Colt who introduced the AR-15 to us.

Seems like airplanes were weapons of war from the get go.

Didn't the Lear jet have its roots in a military plane?

Seems like the drive behind penicillin was battle related.

The only force I know of that compares with the military for driving advances in technology is NASA...and that certainly is a military platform.

 

[carguychris]

Didn't the Lear jet have its roots in a military plane?

Yes, a stillborn Swiss fighter-bomber, the FFA P-16. The military project was canned basically because the Swiss gov't realized that they couldn't commit adequate resources to bring the airplane into service before it would be obsolete. IIRC Bill Lear bought the engineering drawings at fire-sale prices but the only part that was used in the Learjet 23/24/25 without substantial changes was the basic internal wing structure.

 

[SIGSHR]

I doubt if John Garand "intended" his rifle for civilians.

 

[44 AMP]

The list of new inventions and improvements in existing designs due to the pressure of war is probably greater than the list of the same done in complete peace time.

The invention of the microwave oven was due to military research. Modern computers, as well. The list of things is HUGE. And really, it matters little for what purpose an inventor /designer does something, what matters is what the WORLD does with his invention(s).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

John M. Browning didn't design the M1911 for civilians, either. The U.S. Ordnance Department put out specifications, and Colt hired John Browning to design a handgun that met those specifications and did so better than the competition. The fact that Browning (and Colt) didn't "intend" it for civilians didn't stop Colt from almost immediately offering commercial versions on the civilian market.

With respect to Mr. Stoner's descendants, what they say, think or believe today is entirely irrelevant to the gun control debate. The civilian, semi-automatic AR-15 is not a select-fire military weapon, and that's what the gun grabbers persist in trying to sell to the American populace.

 

[2ndsojourn]

^^^
"American populace." AKA: Kool Aid chugging uninformed.


I guess my 1860's Spencer rifle should be banned as a weapon of war. The same with my Yugo capture K98 Mauser, 1903 Springfield, FN Hi Power, Remington Rand 1911 (surplus purchase by my dad back in the '60s), Sistema Colt 1911, Radom 9mm and probably a few others.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

In all, an AR-15 style rifle has been used in at least 10 recent mass shootings – including at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, and a work party in San Bernardino, California.

I'd like to know where they came up with ten -- and what they use as a definition of "recent." Looking at their chart I've been compiling, I had to go back to 2007 to get beyond five -- and they weren't all "AR-15 style" so-called assault weapons.

2016 - Orlando, FL - Pulse Club
2015 - San Bernardino, CA
2012 - Sandy Hook, CT - Sandy Hook Elementary School
2012 - Aurora Theater
2007 - New Life Church, CO
2007 - West Roads Mall, Nebraska
2000 - Edgewater Technology, MA

Those are the only ones I have found in which so-called "assault weapons" of all types (not just AR-15s) were used. That's only seven incidents, not ten, and I don't consider events that occurred ten to fifteen years ago as "recent."

What "recent" mass shootings involving assault weapons have I overlooked?

 

[44 AMP]

I can't begin to tell you what one's you've overlooked, but I think I can tell you what you HAVE overlooked.

Mass Shooting

The FBI is (as I understand it) is currently defining a mass murder as 4 or more dead.

The media now seems to be defining "mass shooting" as 4 or more WOUNDED. While reporting on the number killed, to make it a mass SHOOTING only requires 4 or more people wounded, not killed.

Using THEIR definition, I suspect you could find 10 recent mass shootings where the AR class rifle was used. You might even be able to use some police shootings as well. Their side certainly has in the past.

 

[Kennydale]

I've read that that thought was a made up lie or misquote.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Mass Shooting

The FBI is (as I understand it) is currently defining a mass murder as 4 or more dead.

The media now seems to be defining "mass shooting" as 4 or more WOUNDED. While reporting on the number killed, to make it a mass SHOOTING only requires 4 or more people wounded, not killed.

Using THEIR definition, I suspect you could find 10 recent mass shootings where the AR class rifle was used. You might even be able to use some police shootings as well. Their side certainly has in the past.

Ah, yes. "When the law favors your side, argue the law. When the facts favor your side, argue the facts."

The new, anti-gun corollary is, "When neither the law nor the facts favor your side, change the facts until they do."

 

[patrickmn]

The bullets that tore through the Pulse nightclub in Orlando were Stoner's .223 rounds,

Really, the Orlando shooter got his ammo from a guy who died in 97??

I didn't see it mentioned, so I'd like to add that the rifle used was not an AR-15 and was not chambered in .223. It was a Sig MCX chambered in 300BK. The whole debate is based on false information.

Mr. Stoner and his invention had about as much to do with the shooting in Orlando as Henry Ford had to do with Explorers with exploding tires back in the 90s.

But this story sounds good to people who see rifles only as tools of murderers and crazy people, and like the exploding tires on Ford Explorers, it's purpose is to sell advertisements.

 

[Tom Servo]

It was a Sig MCX chambered in 300BK. The whole debate is based on false information.

Unfortunately, that bit of signal gets lost in the noise. Even if we could make that point, we get shouted down with, "it was an AR-style assault weapon."

 

[ATN082268]

Asking anti-gun types to define things like "assault weapons" and/or how policy "x" will stop the next "mass" shòoting or whatever, is the best way to shut them down. The anti-gun types will look like a deer frozen by a car's headlights...

 

[qkarl]

I don't care for comments made by "the family of" anyone famous.

 

[iraiam]

It does not matter at all what the inventors intentions were, was he not a private citizen himself when he designed the Armalite Rifle, Design 15?

 

[FireForged]

They never intended TANG or Velcro to become a civilian product either. The man created a weapon and its used in that capacity.

 

[armedleo]

I seem to recall that the M16 had a fairly rough beginning and wasn't much liked by our ground troops when first introduced. If memory serves, I don't think the rifles were even issued with cleaning kits since they were so touted as state of art weaponry. McNamara and his "whiz kids" also forgot about Stoner's design calling for a chrome lined bore. Or, perhaps they thought it really wasn't necessary (being smarter than the inventor) and so saved a little money by leaving out the chrome lined bore.

But, it really is remarkable how a weapon that started out with such a shaky beginning would later find itself thought of as the go to rifle. Even to this day.

 

[44 AMP]

But, it really is remarkable how a weapon that started out with such a shaky beginning would later find itself thought of as the go to rifle. Even to this day.

There are many weapons that were deployed before "all the bugs were worked out", in fact when you think on it, there are none in the modern era. Even bolt action rifles went through their own period of development, discovering what worked, better, then best.

The M16 has a more "checkered" past than some, due to both arrogance and ignorance on many sides. The reason its the go to rifle today is our govt stuck with it. After the detrimental "tinkering" with the design was finally over, things to improve it have been being done for decades, and now, the bugs are pretty well worked out.

Several people have told me that the M16 went to Viet Nam 6months before cleaning kits for it did. And how claims about it "not needing cleaning" were taken as fact by many.

 

[carguychris]

There are many weapons that were deployed before "all the bugs were worked out", in fact when you think on it, there are none in the modern era. Even bolt action rifles went through their own period of development, discovering what worked, better, then best.

Case in point: British development of the Pattern 1914 Enfield to replace the Lee-Enfield after the long-range capabilities of the latter rifle were found lacking during the Second Boer War. It's easy to forget today that the British military leadership originally intended to phase out the Lee-Enfield well before the time that WWI would end.

If one looks at history closely, there were significant problems with virtually every primary combat arm that was deployed during the 20th century and saw significant combat use, although some of those problems were obviously more serious than others.