extractor no ejecting

[44 AMP]

I just don't see any harm in jacking the slide more than once.

well, I don't think it will hurt anything, it is remotely possible that if the extractor is slipping off the rim of a chambered round, repeated racking MIGHT let it grab and hang on one time, and extract the round.

On the other hand, if the extractor is broken, racking the slide multiple times will do nothing to pull the loaded round out of the chamber, SO, if you don't LOOK CAREFULLY, and/or feel with your finger, just racking the slide a half dozen times or so will NOT guarantee the chamber is empty.

Question: when you had your "bang" was the fired shell casing ejected??

 

[Hal]

Question: when you had your "bang" was the fired shell casing ejected??

Me?

I had a "bang" ND with a .25 Raven.
Spent shell was ejected.

Racked the slide, dropped the mag - I assume that's what happened.
But - being a Raven, who knows?

I pointed the gun down and pulled the trigger & "bang".
It spit the casing on the bed & my first thought was, oh @#$@, I put a hole in the waterbed in the bedroom down below.

I must have hit a joist though because there was no hole in the downstairs ceiling.

 

[arquebus357]

You should be proud that your self training told you to point a firearm in a relatively safe direction before pulling the trigger. ALWAYS

 

[Onward Allusion]

. . . and 32ACP's can fire out of a 380 at least between a Kel Tec P32 and P3AT. These days when working on semi-autos, I not only clear chamber w/o mag but also shake the gun with the slide locked back, tilt the gun up, and look into the chamber. If it still goes bang after that, I guess it was my time.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

NEVER lock back the slide and then drop the mag, because you're just asking to inadvertently chamber a round if you forget step 2.

Huh, I don't get this. If the magazine is out, how can you chamber another round. I lock back the slide and drop the mag all the time and then checked to see if the chamber is loaded both visually and physically. that's how I was taught many years ago.

 

[JohnKSa]

If the magazine is out, how can you chamber another round.

In the post that you're responding to, 'step 2' is dropping the mag. If step 2 is forgotten then the magazine isn't out.

That is why removing the magazine should be step 1. Start by removing the mag to remove the ammunition in the magazine, THEN manipulate the slide to remove/detect ammunition in the chamber.

 

[GarandTd]

Deleted original post. Always drop the mag 1st.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

n the post that you're responding to, 'step 2' is dropping the mag. If step 2 is forgotten then the magazine isn't out.

That is why removing the magazine should be step 1. Start by removing the mag to remove the ammunition in the magazine, THEN manipulate the slide to remove/detect ammunition in the chamber.
__________________

LOL, so if you forget step two in your senario, then you could just as easily have a ND because step two would be to eject the round. This being the most common occurances of ND's. that of removing the magazine and forgetting to check the chamber. I rather rack the slide back to see if there is a round in the chamber first and then remove the mag.

2. People who rack the slide and see an empty mag might unwittinly assume that the gun is empty (unchambered). An empty mag might lead to this assumption and they would more likely to forget step 2 (rack the slide to check). ESPECIALLY NEWBIES.

3. If you lock back the slide first. You can easily see the chamber and magazine at the same time. If there is a chambered round, and you forgot, by racking the slide back first, it comes flying out as a reminder.

4. Probably that's how most of the glock ND's happen. By dropping the mag, and then pressing the trigger to disassemble. If they had locked back the slide first and the round came flying out, they would then remember to drop the mag.

 

[JohnKSa]

...that's how I was taught many years ago.

Where did you learn this procedure?

I was curious to see if maybe I was off base, so I just finished going through 20 some-odd owners manuals for firearms with detachable magazines.

Every single one of them recommended removing the magazine first and only checking the chamber after the magazine had been removed.

I rather rack the slide back to see if there is a round in the chamber first and then remove the mag.

The issue is that with the magazine in the gun, one can check the chamber and then drop the slide and reload the chamber that was just verified to be empty. Checking the chamber while there's still a loaded mag in the gun creates a situation where the chamber check can be done properly and an empty chamber verified but then the chamber can be loaded inadvertently from the loaded magazine that's still in the gun.

If the mag is out, then no matter how the procedure is scewed up from there on out, at least the chamber won't actually be reloaded. One might not properly check the chamber (which would be a fail regardless of what order the process is performed) but at least once a proper chamber check is performed, there's no way to chamber another round once the mag is out of the gun.

...If they had locked back the slide first and the round came flying out, they would then remember to drop the mag.

And if the chamber was empty and nothing came out then by that logic they might not remember to drop the loaded mag and when they dropped the slide they would chamber a round.

People who rack the slide and see an empty mag might unwittinly assume that the gun is empty (unchambered). An empty mag might lead to this assumption and they would more likely to forget step 2 (rack the slide to check).

I don't understand how people who rack the slide are more likely to forget to rack the slide.

...so if you forget step two in your senario, then you could just as easily have a ND because step two would be to eject the round. This being the most common occurances of ND's.

I'd be interested to see the data on that--what study are you quoting?

Anyway, the bottom line is this: In every applicable owner's manual I could find, the proper procedure is as follows:

1. If there is a safety and/or decocker control then put the gun on safe and/or decock it using the control.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.

If you have (or know of) a manual that specifies a different procedure, I'd be interested to see it.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

where did I learn that?
from my uncle bob chow.

I shot bullseye for many years. And at the end of every string, it was....
SLIDES BACK, MAGAZINES OUT.
I never heard, "Magazines out, slides back.

I hand you a gun. Is it loaded?
I drop the magazine first. Hand it to you with the slide closed. Is it loaded?
I lock back the slide and hand it to you. Is it loaded. Yes or no, you can see right away.
One method takes one action. the other two actions. what you do afterwards is up to the shooters training.

I know of a friend that thought he should release the striker to store his glock. so one day at the sheriff's ccw qualifications he was caught doing this and told by the RO to stop doing that. after one shooting string he did that and had a ND. why? because he dropped the mag, thought he was safe and pulled the trigger again to relieve the trigger.
Disqualified immediately.

Also, I find it more natural, maybe because that's how I've done it for so many years. I can lock back the slide, and drop the mag into my other hand and check the chamber. If I do the opposite, drop the mag first, what the heck do I do with the mag when I'm trying to rack the slide back. It's much more awkward.
Same action for type 3 malfunction. Lock the slide back, drop the mag.

 

[JohnKSa]

where did I learn that?
from my uncle bob chow.

Well, based on my research, it seems that gun manufacturers either didn't consult your Uncle Bob for input or they disagreed with him.

I shot bullseye for many years. And at the end of every string, it was....
SLIDES BACK, MAGAZINES OUT.

I don't know who came up with those commands but I do know that they are not official commands to be used for NRA bullseye pistol matches.

Here's the book, you can check for yourself.

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

why? because...

Because he didn't follow the proper procedure for unloading a firearm before pulling the trigger.

Is it loaded?
...Is it loaded?
...Is it loaded.

It is certainly true that there are various methods one could employ to make loaded status of a particular firearm more obvious or less obvious. However, none of them changes the proper procedure for unloading it.

The reason that the magazine is dropped before the chamber is checked is to eliminate the chance of reloading the chamber after it has been verified empty.

 

[44 AMP]

1. If there is a safety and/or decocker control then put the gun on safe and/or decock it using the control.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.

While this isn't bad advice, step #1 doesn't (can't) be applied to everything. Or rather, it can, I suppose, but serves no purpose that I can see. (other than the standard practice of applying the safety to any gun you aren't certain is unloaded)

Of course, I am thinking "outside the GLock" here. Many designs can only have the safety applied when the gun is cocked. Many lock the action shut when the safety is on.

SO, for the purpose of unloading, what's the point of putting the safety on, to drop the mag, then taking it off, to open the action??

For me, I don't drop the mag first. I rack the action open, and expect the empty mag to lock it open. IF IT DOES NOT, THEN I know right away something isn't right, and its most likely a live round. I then drop the mag and operate the action, expecting to see the live round ejected.

If THAT does not happen, I lock the action open manually and take a careful look (and a feel) in the chamber, before moving on to figure out why things didn't work as expected.

 

[JohnKSa]

While this isn't bad advice, step #1 doesn't (can't) be applied to everything. Or rather, it can, I suppose, but serves no purpose that I can see. (other than the standard practice of applying the safety to any gun you aren't certain is unloaded)

Of course, I am thinking "outside the GLock" here. Many designs can only have the safety applied when the gun is cocked. Many lock the action shut when the safety is on.

SO, for the purpose of unloading, what's the point of putting the safety on, to drop the mag, then taking it off, to open the action??

That step was a quick & dirty summary of instructions from 20 some-odd manuals for 20 some-odd different guns with a wide variety of manuals of arms having only detachable magazines in common. The focus was on the order of steps 2 and 3, but I foolishly decided to include the first step since some variant of it was commonly stated.

Let me try to summarize that step slightly differently.

1. If applicable then put the gun on safe and/or decock it.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Operate the action and verify that the chamber is empty.

For me, I don't drop the mag first.

I'm willing to bet that the manual for the firearm in question says to drop the mag first.

I rack the action open, and expect the empty mag to lock it open. IF IT DOES NOT...

If it does not then you just chambered a round as part of your unloading process. This is counterproductive at best, and dangerous at worst.

I then drop the mag and operate the action, expecting to see the live round ejected.

You could just have done that as the first resort, following the manual, and thereby avoiding both repetition and the possibility of chambering a round as part of the unloading process.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

John, I don't know how many bullseys matches you have personally attended, but I shot competitive bullseye for over ten years and have been to hundresd of matches. Although every range officer has their own way, the commands have been burned into my memory.
I shot in the San Francisco bay area most of the time, and they all used "slides back, magazines out, cylinders open.

If you had an alibi, you had to show the malfunction, then rack the slide back and drop the magazine and make the line safe.

http://www.njpistol.com/Summary.pdf
Here is a page from the New Jersey Pistol association's guide book:
“Slides back, magazines out, guns on the bench, safety flags in chambers, make the line safe”

Well, based on my research, it seems that gun manufacturers either didn't consult your Uncle Bob for input or they disagreed with him.

and I hope you know who Bob Chow is. Of course, he had his own way of doing things, but his background was from the bullseye world.

 

[JohnKSa]

Although every range officer has their own way, the commands have been burned into my memory.
I shot in the San Francisco bay area most of the time, and they all used "slides back, magazines out, cylinders open.

I'm not saying that's not what happened. I'm just saying those aren't standard NRA bullseye commands--I provided the official source so you can verify that what I'm saying is correct.

Anyway, even if it were standard practice for NRA bullseye, and even if Bob Chow were JMB reincarnated, it still wouldn't change what every applicable owner's manual I could find recommends in terms of the unloading procedure.

If you can find one that recommends a different procedure I'd be interested to see it.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

You asked me where I learned my methodology, and I told you. that's all.
Not saying that is the correct way or only way.
We are old enough to realize there are more than one way to skin a cat.

As long as one knows how to handle a weapon safely.

If you can find one that recommends a different procedure I'd be interested to see it.

Seecamp. You can't rack the slide back with the magazine removed. The slide will only go back 1/2 inch, but just enough to check chamber.

In order to remove a cartridge that is loaded in the chamber, you have to either remove the loaded magazine, and load an empty one to rack the slide back to eject the loaded round. Or you can drop the mag just enough (1/4 inch) so the next round won't be picked up when you rack the slide to eject the chambered round, and then remove the magazine.

 

[Lexspeed]

Such an informative and respectful discourse on this topic. But, instead of being enlightened, I remain hesitant regarding the most appropriate procedure.

I am thinking about flipping a coin to decide.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

It seems to make more sense to me to drop the mag first, this way when you rack the slide it will lock open after ejecting the round. Unless your gun doesn't lock open after the last round, in which case it go either way. I keep a 10" piece of bright orange fiberglass dowel in my bag, I run this down the barrel after locking back the slide to make sure the barrel is clear. I also use this to check for a barrel obstruction on any suspected squib or short charge.

 

[JohnKSa]

Seecamp. You can't rack the slide back with the magazine removed.

Makes sense. It would be pretty ridiculous for the manual to recommend a procedure that can't be performed.

However, it is interesting to note that the Seecamp manual indicates that the magazine should be partially removed as the first step.

http://www.seecamp.com/SeecampManualNew.pdf

UNLOADING: (Figures 5 and 6)
1. Pivot the magazine catch to the rear.
2. The magazine will drop down a small distance when the magazine catch is pivoted to the rear.​

I am thinking about flipping a coin to decide.

Or you could read the owner's manual for the firearm in question. That's a good idea in the general case, not just to acquire this specific information.

 

[GarandTd]

It seems to make more sense to me to drop the mag first, this way when you rack the slide it will lock open after ejecting the round.

On my SAR K2P, it is a notch on the follower of the empty mag that locks the slide back. If the mag is removed, I must manual lock the slide back with the slide lock/release lever. I still agree with dropping the mag 1st.
The bright colored dowel is a good idea.