Everything crappy about the...P7 series.

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Badgerarms,

Here I am responding to your e-mail in a more straightforward manner.

1. "Think it was said earlier... I don't think the experience of the two posters here is anything extensive."

OK. Good to know.

2. "-- IF you can fire 100 rounds that means 12 magazine changes. How many cops carry 12 magazines? How many concealed carry civilians carry 12 magazines?"

If you would read closely you would notice that I said that this was a training concern, not a practical one. I never thought of it that way until one of the senior armororers at HK brought it up (A Mr. Kunh (kunz?), who explained to me that his early P7 with metal trigger gets REALLY HOT!).

3. "-- A plugged gas port causes slide acceleration, not deceleration."

Stop cleaning your gun (specifically the gas cylinder or use lead and the slide will lock back. You will have to strike the rear of the slide with your hand to get the slide back in action. This is fact. If you haven't seen this it is clear whose experience with the P7 is limited.

4. "-- The click when the gun decocks is no different than any other pistol when decocking."

In theory no. However, the P7'c click is considerably noisier than most decockers(CLICK").

5. "-- The magazine capacity is higher than a revolver. I guess people who carry revolvers must be wrong."

Your right, capacity is a non-issue. Now go buy a 44 Deringer and throw away your P7 and its excessive capacity.

6. -- The gun gets dirty after 700 rounds!!?! Duh. Of course it does, so does my Para Ordnance.

I'm with ya brother.


7. "-- The grip screws come loose like the majority of pistols with grips and screws. Hey, tighten them up and use locktite. "

I said use lock-tite in the very first post mentioning the screw issue.

8. "Give me a break. I've found the gun to be DAMN accurate, very safe, simple to opperate, light and thin on the hip, did I mention accurate?" They are also very well built.

A round of "duhs" would be appropriate here.

9. I might be the exception but my grip screws never came loose.

You would be the exception (to the laws of physics) unless you have used lock-tite from the begining.

10. " My gun NEVER jammed with factory loads."

This has been my experience also.

11. " It NEVER got too hot to handle as I only had three magazines for it and wouldn't be able to Abuse my gun by lighting off 13 magazines full in a row."

The P7 may never be too hot for you to handle. You may enjoy blisters. The gun starts to get uncomfortable for less superhuman users around, roughly, the 100 mark.


12. " My range sessions lasted 200 rounds and the gun was no more dirty than any other gas-operated semi."

Well if you limit it to gas-operated semiautos then OK. Most semi-autos are not gas operated (except in the abstract sense). Hence, the P7 gets extra-dirty in comparison to most pistols (Glocks, Sigs, Berrettas, S+Ws, Walthers, Kahrs, Hk USPS..)


13. The finish was as good as any other blued pistol I got it in a straight across trade for a reimport Garand years ago and sold it for a profit.

My first P7's blueing, an M13 (91'), started coming off from the wear of the presentation box's felt lining on the way home. I have owned various blued guns that could handle FELT!

My 2nd P7(92' M8) (my baby!) was Nickel (HK screwed this up also. APW, finally got it right with a good hardchrome job).

My third P7 (a late 90's 'PSP) also had worthless blueing. This time, the cheapo plastic box wore the blueing from the bottom of the frame. This was a minor mark but a real bitch considering I had just coughed up a little under a grand.

GHB

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
Greg, with my referb'd P7M8 coming early next week, what do you recommend re finish? Frankly, a crome finish doesn't interest me, but neither does brown rust. I do slather my carry piece every night with oil, shouldn't that work here?

Since you obviously have owned several, what do you recommend for the first few hundred rounds? How often do you clean your P7? With my Kel Tec P-11 and P-32 I will often go 100-150 rounds total, or less than a week, before cleanup since I generally shoot the first couple of days each week.

I try to keep key spare parts for all my carry pieces, what do you recommend for the P7?

Thanks
 
Ragin' Cajun,

With regard to the finish. The refurb will probably have a slightly plum-colored slide. Your reaction will probably be that you need it refinished. My advice is to keep it as is. If you are diligent in your cleaning and oiling corrosion won't be an issue. Unfortunately, you won't be able to store your P7 in your salt-water fish tank like, apparently, many Glockers do. Refinishing a gun can be an extremely frustrating business. I had to send my gun back twice before the Chrome stopped peeling off my gun.. In the final analysis refinishing is rarely necessary--and sometimes harmful. The P7 is a complicated gun to work on and many refinishers are too stupid to realize they don't know what they are doing. A recent post here argued that guns with worn finishes have more character. As silly as that sounds it seems true. The reasons I had mine done were that my gun had some rust pits from leaving it in a holster for over a year (without once taking it out) and the Nickel was peeling off. I love my gun's new finish but it actually keeps me from carrying it sometimes--it’s too pretty!

As for cleaning, I would clean my gun after every session. Follow HK's manual and you won't go wrong. The P7 likes to be clean--and if you keep it happy it will keep you happy.

Ammo. Anything within reason. Don't shoot any really crappy reloads or lead bullets. I generally plink with the latest Wal-Mart cheapos. Lately I have enjoyed winclean because it doesn't leave as much crud.

Spare parts. Get some more grip screws ($4 a piece!). I'd buy the whole firing pin assembly if I were really gung-ho. HKPRO.com has a lot of parts for sale. Generally, get as many springs as you can handle. However, my M8 has an unholy number of rounds through it and no part has ever failed. I'm so "dialed in" with this gun I dread the day I have send it to HK for a freshening-up.

Oh, GET ANY FACTORY MAGS YOU CAN FIND! People have been having real trouble finding M8 mags lately. I guess HK used up their supply outfitting all the refurbs.

Good luck and keep us posted on your new baby!

GHB
 
I second the purchase of a firing pin assembly, or at least the firing pin assembly retainer.

US Park Police, which have used the P7 series as standard issue for nearly 10 years, has been having problems with the wings breaking off the retainers and disabling the guns.

That is now one thing that is covered at every USPP pre-shift firearms inspection, whereas in the past it wasn't.

------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree on a few issues here. My carry gun is a S&W 642 Airweight Centenial primarily. When I hit the gun shows, I usually carry a Para Ordnance P-14 Limited with the Smith as a backup. House gun is a Shotgun. I'd taken the H&K out a few times and it rode well but was a bit heavy for my tastes for day-to-day carry. If I can't use the gun, it becomes disposable. Still, I loved it while I had it. Burned up quite the number of rounds while I carried it. I would put about two boxes through it a month to stay proficient.
 
One time, when I was a new collector, I sold all my guns to consolidate the money into two P7's. I figured that I didn't need a conglomoration of mediocre guns, I just needed one good gun, and one backup to it. I bought two P7M13's with a bunch of full capacity mags. I thought it was the best thing in the world. I talked about it all the time, I was so happy with only owning one type of gun, I thought I owned the best of the best and needed nothing else, and I even tended to wonder and ask why people wasted their time protecting their lives with anything less than the best.
(And, I disagree that the M13 handle is much bigger than the M8. Set them flat on a counter side by side and the different in width of the handle is very little, almost difficult to notice. Although, it may feel wider in the hand to some, I did not find it to be wider enough to affect concealment. Pure width is all I cared about, because this was a CCW gun).
I loved those guns, fondled them, and shot them with pure joy.
Then I tried to carry them.
The luster dimmed a little.
The P7 is a brick of a gun (heavy!). And worse yet, all the weight is in the handle. Speaking of tuna, the thing flops around on your belt like a dead fish in your holster. I never found a holster that could hold it securely AND conceal it well for the size. There is almost no muzzle, so there is nothing to hold it into the holster. And the weight in the handle constantly pulls the gun out and down, letting it flop around rather than ride securely by your side (under a shirt, this is very important to have the gun hug your body). I know that a good holster and belt help, but the gun is still very poorly balanced for carry and very heavy for the firepower it holds.
Trying to find holsters for the P7 is no joy after owning more popular guns. And EVERYTHING for them costs an arm and a leg and is hard to find.

That was the beginning of my dislike, was carrying it every day. The thing is heavy, balances VERY poorly on the belt in a variety of holsters, and RUSTS like crazy. Pulling out a $1500 gun and seeing rust on it is not a happy experience.


Then, after the newness wore off, I found that I really didn't like the way it shot. The trigger pull is spongy and longer that it needs to be, and the trigger reset for the second shot is too long. Also, it is tough to aim because all the weight is in your hand and the gun tends to bobble around a lot. And I don't care what anyone says, it has MORE recoil than the many other 9mm's that I have shot. And lastly, after all the talk about how accurate they are, I just did not see it on paper.
I think that people assume they are so accurate because of the fixed barrel, and the rumors of their accuracy, but how many people actually put them on paper and find them to be any more accurate than any other decent gun out there?

I started wondering if maybe this was not the gun it was cracked up to be. I had three of them (at like $1500 a piece with mags etc!), so it is not like I just got one lemon.
It was a really expensive gun, and just did not perform any better than anything else. I found myself babying it a little and really having to fight rust, so I bought a Glock 19 to have as a "beater gun".
Uh oh, that was the end of that.


One day, I took the Glock 19 and the HK P7 M13's (I owned three of them by then) to the range to test them out side by side. I really was biased toward the P7 because it was so much money, and I was wanting to believe that it was worth it. I favored the P7 through all the tests.
I shot the Glock next to them, and by golly, there was no arguing that the Glock has noticably LESS felt recoil and muzzle flip, and faster followup shots. I was dismayed and didn't want to believe it, but there was not disputing it, it was very noticable.
Okay, so I told myself, the P7 is certainly more accurate, and that is where the money goes, is into accuracy.
So, I put them both on paper at 15 and 20 yards. Boy was I in for a shock. I know I will get strung up by my toes for saying this, but as someone that has owned THREE P7 M13's as my only guns for years, and shot them all side by side with a new Glock 19, the Glock 19 was more accurate! And I had not shot a Glock in years! The groups were signicicantly smaller with the Glock 19, it was at least %30 more accurate at those ranges, even though I was favoring the P7 and really wanted to prove that it was the better gun.



So anyway, I ended up selling all the P7's.
I think they are a beautiful gun, but they just ain't all that when it comes to pure performance. I think that a lot of people are like myself, and after they waited for so long, and heard so much hype, and spent so much money, they really want to believe that the P7 is something more than it is.


My Glock
-costs a third as much,
-carries more rounds,
-is lighter weight,
-balances much better for carry,
-is more accurate (gasp!),
-has less felt recoil and
-faster followup with a shorter trigger reset,
-has cheaper parts,
-and very easy to find parts and accessories,
-I can fix it myself with any makeshift tools,
-I can get holsters anywhere at any price and of any type that I want,
-it does not RUST,
-it does not get hot when I shoot it,
-it does not need to be cleaned so much,
-and I don't have the urge to baby it.


In pure performance, which one is the obvious winner? Not in eye appeal, or warm fuzzies, or "coolnees factor" or any of that, but in pure performance the Glock is the clear winner in most every area of real performance.

Sorry, but IME, the the Glock is a better gun at a lot less money. Keeping in mind that I am a person that carries a gun every day rather than many that keep theirs in a safe and might get more joy out of the HK. The Glock is a better carry gun for the real user who wants real performance.

I know that P7 owners are even more rabid than Glock owners (I used to be a rabid P7 owner, arguing how great it was at a drop of a hat), so I will get a rash of crap from some people for saying the above.


This is not meant to put down the P7 or P7 users. It is a fine gun, but it just was not for me, when it comes to a carry gun. I will say that all of my P7's (and Glocks) have been %100 reliable. And there are some very nice things about the P7 that gave me warm fuzzies like the milling marks inside the slide (a real milled steel gun - very cool).
I liked the squeeze cocker, but since the P7 really needs a good holster to be carried well (there is not enough muzzle, and too much handle weight to just stuff in your pants and trust it to stay) then I ask myself if it is any faster or safer than a Glock in a holster? Seems to me that a Glock in a holster is just as safe and probably a hair faster to the first shot than the P7. So, while the P7 has some cool features, and I like it a lot, I don't think it has anything over a Glock in pure performance.
One thing that people might want to consider, is that under stress when you pull out the P7 and actuate the squeeze cocker, it is possible that when flexing your other three fingers to squeeze the cocker, you could easily subconsciously squeeze the trigger as well (squeezing all the fingers together under stress rather than just three of them, since you may have lost some fine motor skills). In this regard and others, the P7 can be a hazard more than a safety.

I hope this doesn't burst anyone's bubble and I am sure I will get some flak for this post, but I figure that these forums are here for people to share experience and learn, and that is my experience, it cost me a lot of money to find out, so I hope someone learns from it.





[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited October 20, 2000).]
 
JDT,

As a P7M13 owner, I'm shocked! Shocked I say! :eek:

I agree with a lot of what you've stated! :)

I do, however, disagree on a number of points.

I don't find the P7 to be a problem to carry at all. I use both a belt holster (IWB) as well as a shoulder holster, and have never had a problem with it.

I don't carry my regularly, but I do carry it quite a bit.

I find the recoil and muzzle flip on the P7 to be SIGNIFICANTLY less that just about any other handgun out there.

I also find the P7 to be the handgun that I am, by far, the most accurate with. I can dump 13 rapid shots into a target at 10 yards and cover the resulting group with my hand.

Those items are, I believe, pretty much covered by the "personal preferences" disclaimer on our gun owners' contract. :)

------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
JDT. I don't disagree with much of what you have said, however I must clarify that everything you have said was based on personal preference. Rust is a problem on any blued gun. Balance is a subjective issue. I, for one, find the Glock 19 VERY difficult to get used to. It was very top heavy and the grip is too short to get all my fingers on. It's also got an annoying tendancy to change ballance halfway through the magazine. (note: I actually owned a Glock 23). As for accuracy, that's also subjective. I find that few guns match my Para Ordnance, but from a practical standpoint they will all shoot good enough. I'm not plucking flies off of a watermellon at 100 yards, though.

Don't get me wrong... I hate the feel of the P7M13 also. You didn't note any reliability or accuracy problems, just dissapointments. Am I correct in assuming that had you paid $500 for the guns you would have been satisfied? Had you paid $1500 for the Glock, would you have been satisfied? I agree that they are expensive, but aren't all H&K's?

You'll note from above that I also disliked the P7 when I carried it. If I had bought a proper holster, I might have liked it more. It did, however, hug my body very well. Mine was the M8 and wasn't as heavy in the grip. I think that a top-light gun is more a virtue than a vice in handling. Again, that is subjective.

Can I sum up what was said that was bad about the P-7 that is legitimate? No, I can't. All of the complaints have, to me, seemed VERY subjective. What the heck are you guys expecting from the gun? It was NEVER designed to be that expensive. In fact, it was designed to be cheap, thin, and compact. That it fails in the price area is not it's fault and I think it's QUITE effective in the other two areas.

How many LEGITAMATE beefs can we find about the Beretta M-9? Costs 50% more than the Ruger, kills soldiers when used properly (those FIRING the gun that is). Has more levers on it than a "B" movie spaceship. Half the soldiers complain the grip is too big.

[This message has been edited by badgerarms (edited October 20, 2000).]
 
Yea I gotta gripe about my P7. $1,000.00 and all you get is a flimsy plastic Glock type box to keep your baby comfy in!

Couldn’t HK have coughed up at least a USP style carry case?

TFW
 
I would like to respectfully disagree with Mr. JdThaddeus on a few things...
You argue that it does not carry well because it is heavy, short muzzled butt-heavy, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of this may be attributable to your choice of the M13. The M13 was an afterthought, pure and simple. You say that it isn't much bigger--at least not in anyway that should interfere with CCW. Still, the M13 has more steel and more rounds in the handle. I think a lot of your trouble might be traced to the fact that the M13's expanded girth upset the design's original balance. That said, I don't remember the M13 carrying any worse than my M8. My M8 usually sits in the small of my back in a Bianchi inside-the-pants clip holster--the same one that used to hold my M13. The gun carries great for me. But as Mr. BadgerArms points out, these things are very subjective.

You point out that you didn't like the way the gun shot (trigger, aim, recoil, etc). This too is partially subjective--but Lord, it usually isn't this relative. IMHO, the P7 has an excellent trigger, much better than the standard fare on most production autos--including the Glock. Also, BadgerArms is absolutely correct in pointing out the fact that the gun's butt-heavy nature gives it excellent shooting characteristics. The gun's weight just sits in your (my) hand better. On my 229's--and my old G23, I find it less conducive to accuracy and follow-up to have most of the guns' weight flying back and forth on top of the frame. In my experience, the P7 has excellent recoil characteristics. I enjoy shooting G17,19 and my 239 in 9mm but none of them can hold a candle to the light recoiling P7--again, IMHO.

As far as the Glock v. HK thing, who knows? If you can shoot a G19 better than a P7--then by all means never look back (I wouldn't!). However, when you said, "The Glock is a better carry gun for the real user who wants real performance." I got sad because I realized I wasn't a "real user"...sniff, snort, sob.

As far as safety--the P7 wins in every objective measure. I don't tend to shove any gun inside my waistband--that is just me. But I have carried my PSP in my pocket (without holster)--something I wouldn't dream of with a Glock or conventional double action. The P7 can be tossed in a glove compartment without a holster--with no real risk of AD. I wouldn't dare let my 23 flop around with keys and God knows what other junk I have in my glove compartment. I always have a nightmare about something pushing the trigger back on my Glock, and to a lesser degree my 229’s. This makes the P7 much better for real-world "real user" (hee, hee) situations.

As far as accidental discharge in emergency situations, this is a problem with all firearms. Certainly, the Glock has had quite a few, quite spectacular, problems in this area. In fact, the local police had not a few AD’s (and suspicious shootings) when they transitioned from revolvers to G22s—and this is a common story across America. The potential squeeze-cocking problem you pointed out has been the subject of a few notes in gun literature through the years—but, thankfully, it has remained a theoretical concern. In fact, HK engineers were aware of this from the beginning-- but tests showed that the trigger finger remains sufficiently independent from rest of the hand (I can’t remember the medical term for this phenomenon). You can see it for yourself by "one hand clapping" and watching how the trigger finger is mostly independent from the rest of the fingers. In fact, if this was a problem it would lead to more accidental discharges in all pistols when you tightened your grip to fire (but, obviously, to a lesser extent). On the other hand, you should also train yourself to cock the gun only when your finger is outside the trigger guard—just to be safe (with the P7 and all other guns).

Frankly, I don't want to run into any man who is serious enough about guns to have owned 3 M13s at one time. Remind me not to cross your path!
GHB

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 21, 2000).]
 
Good points everyone. I should have been more careful to lace my post with more subjective disclaimers. I did not mean to imply that you are not a "real carrier" Greg, even though I know you are just toying with me on that point ;)

My main beef was that after all that money put into the legendary P7 my bubble was a little burst. It took a long time for the luster to wear off, and for me to step and and look at it a little more clearly. At first, the legend and luster clouded my vision and I was convinced that it was the baddest gun EVER made, period, end of story. Then, it took a while, but my head cleared and I shot it nexto some other guns, and carried other guns, and lo and behold, I found out that (for me) it is just not that great of a gun. A very cool gun, yes. But as I listed, in many areas, the Glock worked better for me. And, when a $420 gun works better than a $1500 gun, then first you cry over spending so much money, then you get rid of it and enjoy the cheaper gun that works better and lastly, you wonder about all the people out there that are convinced of the greatness of the expensive gun, and fear that maybe their vision is being clouded like mine was. :)

I feel that if a Glock and a P7 were side by side, and I needed a carry gun to trust me life with (in other words price is not a factor) and they were both the same price, I would get the Glock because FOR ME it is leaps and bounds the better gun.

I am glad they make so many guns, because there are so many different kinds of people. I am also glad that I happen to do really well with a cheap gun, because that frees up more money for other things ;)


Although, looking back at my post, I must say that there is more there than just subjectivity. Some of them are facts. The following are fairly factual:

My Glock
-costs a third as much,
-carries more rounds,
-is lighter weight,
-is at least just as accurate?,
-has cheaper parts,
-and it is very easy parts and accessories,
-I can fix it easily myself with any makeshift tools,
-I can get holsters anywhere at any price and of any type that I want,
-it does not RUST,

I even eliminated a few of the borderline things I said, like that I had to clean the P7 more (because both are pretty low maintenance), and that the P7 gets hot (mine got hot, but it didn't both me too much).

As for SHOOTABILITY, well, each person has to test that for themselves. Unfortunately, in order to really test that, most people have to buy one to find out. My experience was that I was absolutely shocked to find out that the Glock shoots better (for me anyway) in every way, and I hoped that I could share that experience so that others would not have to go buy one to find out. But, being that it is subjective, there is no getting around shooting one for yourself to find out. Since finding rentals or friends who own a P7 is tough, I had to buy one to find out. I am not bitter though, because it is not like I lost money when I sold it :)

[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited October 21, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheFederalistWeasel:
Couldn’t HK have coughed up at least a USP style carry case?
TFW[/quote]

I wouldn't buy a Lorcin in a Diamond studded Titanium case, but I would buy a P-7 in a paper bag. Honestly, I don't think the USP style cases were in vogue when the P-7 first came out. My USP, for some reason, came in a cardboard box. Hmmmm.
 
One of the nicest guns I ever owned, an HK P9s, came in a paper box! HK was one of the last on the fancy box bandwagon. In fact, the P7M0 (which was availible as late as 94') came in a grey paper box. One of the things I respect about Glock is the fact that they never (to my knowledge) got rid of the minimalist tuperware box. Still, the P7 box is a throwback. Also, it is so rigid that it wears the paint off of the P7 !

Mr jdthaddeus,

1. "My Glock costs a third as much"

Basically true, although, to spit hairs, P7s around here usally go for around twice as much as a Glock. Still one heck of a serious purchase. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, your butt is worth $500.

2. -carries more rounds,

Yep! Glock is capacity king. Spray, prey, and spray some more! What the Glock gives up in accuracy and slimness it, arguably, makes up in brute firepower.

3.-is lighter weight,

True, the P7 is built like a vault. It was clear that flat-out toughness was on HK's list when this gun was designed.

4. -is at least just as accurate?,

I seriously doubt this for most people. I would bet cold cash that the P7 beats the Glock from a rest (stock P7 v. stock Glock). I say this because I've tried this several times. The only stock gun that I could beat the P7 with was my old P9s (which also has a fixed barrel). But, as I'm sure you know, bench accuracy is not always human accuracy. Still, I think its a safe bet the average user will be more accurate with the P7M8/M13.

5. -has cheaper parts/easy to repair,

I've never had to replace any of my P7s' parts. This won't be an issue for the average Glock or HK user. Glocks are, in my experience, a more prone to need a little repair now and then. However, it is hard to tell because of the massive number of Glocks out there.
The nice thing about Glocks is that you can get all sorts of aftermarket goodies for them. The nice thing about the P7 is that you don't need them. OK, that was a cheap shot. However, I really can't think of much I would want for my M8. It already has night-sites and hardchrome(hence, no rust). Things like titanium strikers and sholder stocks seem a little silly to me. You can't get P7 holster off the rack. However, around here the only thing you can get holsters for off the rack are 1911s and Glocks(and universal hosters like uncle Mike's). For my Sigs and HKs I have had to wait a week for my local shop to order my holsters. I guess if I need a holster in an emergency it would be a big deal. I have several great holsters for my P7 (Galco, Uncle Mike's and Bianchi). They didn't cost anymore than the ones for my SIG. There are some custom ones that cost an arm and a leg, but I have never been attracted to them.

GHB


[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 22, 2000).]
 
Hmm... ummm... *Flipping through illustrated "My First Moderating Book"* Ah!

Okay, bear with me, 'cause this is the first time I've done this! ;)

*ahem*

"130k+... Time for part 2."

Did I do that rig
 
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