Ever get kicked out of a CCW class?

[Frank Ettin]

Semi-autos, double action revolvers and single action revolvers can all be effective for self defense. To use them most effectively, one needs to know and understand how to use them most effectively. And to teach one how to best use a semi-auto, double action revolver or a single action revolver, an instructor needs to both know how to use the particular type of gun effectively and understand how best to teach those techniques.

If this instructor did not think he was up to the task of teaching the defensive use of a single action revolver, IMO it's to his credit that he declined the enrollment and offered to refund the fee. That's a much more ethical result than taking the money and doing a poor job of instructing.

As with most prejudices, your instructor seems to lack education on how to run a SA revolver effectively...as well as knowing a .45-caliber bullet hits just as hard from a SAA as it does from a self-shucker....

What a snarky and totally inappropriate way to put it. True, the instructor might not have sufficient knowledge and experience running a single action revolver for self defense use. But I dare say that many highly regarded self defense firearms instructors have little experience with single action revolvers for self defense use.

Clint Smith I know is an exception, but I also know that he has made a special effort to study the topic.

Also, the single action revolver classes I've heard about have been just for single action revolvers. I could see difficulties trying to deal with the unique characteristics if a single action revolve in a "mixed gun" class.

 

[Theohazard]

You brought a typewriter to a computer class.
You shouldn't have been offended.

I dont think that was the case at all. It was a general all purpose class. Its like bringing typewriter to a typing class. Sure a computer is better but they both type.

I agree 100% with Deja vu. While it's not the ideal self-defense gun by any means, I know several people who could outshoot most semi-auto-carrying CCWers with a single-action revolver in terms of overall accurate rounds on target within a given time. And that's including reloads.

If I were the instructor, I might have not asked you to leave the class. I would have made it clear that you'd be expected to keep up with the rest of the class, and shoot to the same standards as everyone else, with absolutely zero room for excuses.

This is what the instructor should have done. A single action revolver can do the job, it just requires a lot more skill on the part of the shooter. If the shooter has the skill to keep up, what's wrong with using a single-action revolver?

 

[Venom1956]

Well honestly this thread sounded worse then it really was...

Honestly if you agree or not as far as I can tell the instructor was polite and offered a refund and explained his reasons.

I agree with those above either

1. He honestly believed that a SA was not an acceptable weapon
2. As said above he didn't feel comfortable (or unable) training you in it.
3. Lastly he doesn't know your skill level or knowledge for all he knows it could be your grandfathers SAA and you've never shot a gun before or know how to work it.

There is a surprising number of gun owners that buy something with little knowledge of how it works or how to use it properly he could be protecting himself and his students from the unknown.

 

[Pahoo]

Nothing personal !!!

The teacher was polite and seemed very informed about autos but I feel he was out of line by not being willing to accept me and my gun in the class

I know it's hard to accept and I don't think he was trying to insult you or make you feel rejected. I feel that the reality is that a SA just did not fit well into "his" agenda. I have even seen this when they are trying to include DA revolvers. Many of the exercises are geared more toward autos. For instance, having to deal with speed loaders as oppose to the continuity of switching mags. You certainly have a right to use whatever you wish and really not meant to be personal. .....

It does bring up a good point as to what requirements or restrictions, going into an instructor's class. For instance, no .22's allowed, no reloads and one class required a minimum of 300 rds. ...

Be Safe !!!

 

[SVTCobra306]

I can't see ejecting a student for having a single action. One of the basic tenets of carrying includes the fact that any gun is better than no gun, though different types might require different accessories. I would personally consider and recommend a backup gun if carrying a single action, but there is no way I would discount the single action revolver as an irrelevant carry gun. In the pistol world, and particularly among every day carriers, opinions are everywhere, and no two are alike, and no one is completely wrong. If you are comfortable with using and carrying a single action, you're actually ahead of some of the people carrying the "better" autos that are not as comfortable or experienced with them.

If the class required a qualification that meant you needed to hit 10 targets in 10-15 seconds, I would be highly advising you to reconsider, but if there is not a hit/time requirement and the firing session is primarily for familiarization, there is no need for concern over action type.

In reality a revolver can be highly effective. How many people do you suppose throw an LCP (or TCP, or bodyguard, or J frame) in their pocket and don't bother with an extra mag? The number is higher than one would think, and none of them are outgunning a single action revolver.

My question to the OP is what can you take away from this? I do like your idea of taking multiple classes when you can, it's something I do as well, even as an instructor myself. I have found that I can take away something new from just about any class I take as long as the instructor has some experience with the subject matter.

 

[gkdir]

You brought a typewriter to a computer class.
You shouldn't have been offended.

__21yrs as LEO.(ret) Smith Model 19- 4"barrel. In the Bianca, or behind my belt--took care of everything that needed taking care of. If you ain't done in 6 rounds--you got other problems________________
G

 

[Pezo]

Winchester 12

Unless you are Jerry Michalek, a single action revolver is not what you want in your hands in a modern gun battle. Even double-action revolvers are not recommended. Modern semi-automatic pistols are advanced enough that they are easily as reliable as any revolver. I've had more issues with revolvers over the years than with any Glock pistol I've shot.

. Ha. My ruger d/a's have never failed. They are stone reliable you can keep your auto loaders for yourself and learn how to spell Jerry Miculek while your at it.

 

[JohnKSa]

He was polite but he asked me to leave the class and offered a refund. He expressed that he did not feel a single action revolver was an adiquite weapon for self defence.

I would have liked to hear exactly what he said and how he said it.

In my opinion, he shouldn't have asked you to leave the class on the basis that he didn't think the weapon was a good choice for self-defense.

HOWEVER, he may have been perfectly justified in asking you to leave the class on the basis that the shooting portion of the class wasn't designed to accommodate the weapon you chose to bring.

Unless you are Jerry Michalek, a single action revolver is not what you want in your hands in a modern gun battle.

While I'm sure that Jerry Miculek owns and shoots single-action revolvers, his primary claim to fame is shooting double-action revolvers, not single action revolvers.

 

[Onward Allusion]

CCCLVII
Ever get kicked out of a CCW class?
I try to take a CCW class every year . . .

It depends on the type of class. If it was the basic FL class, then he was wrong to have asked you to leave.

If it was one of the more advance classes that requires a couple/few hundred rounds to be shot, then he was completely in line. There would be no way you would have been able to keep up with those with semi-autos or even DA revolvers with speedloaders. You would have only slowed everyone else down.

 

[Onward Allusion]

The difference in the guns themselves is that 6 misses with the SA44 means you are out of the fight. With the Glock it means you have 12 more chances to do something useful.

Well, I guess those folks who carry J-Frames are in deep doo-doo.

 

[zombietactics]

^^^ If they miss 5-6 times, yes ... unless missing with a revolver is more effective than missing with a semi-auto.

I carry a J-frame on occasion, and I don't consider myself "unarmed". I just know the difference between 5 and 18. I'd rather have 18, if possible.

 

[orionengnr]

We all know what Jerry Miculek can do with a single-action-revolver, and it's really besides the point

No, we don't.
I know what Jerry Miculek can do with an S&W M25 (or 625) but have no idea that he is a single-action shooter.

Although I would not be surprised to learn that he can shoot just about anything well.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Zombietactics writes:

If I were the instructor, I might have not asked you to leave the class. I would have made it clear that you'd be expected to keep up with the rest of the class, and shoot to the same standards as everyone else, with absolutely zero room for excuses.

BINGO!!! I agree 100%!!!

 

[Brit]

Main problem, reloads. In the days when I shot D/A Mod 65 S&W Revolvers, I could reload in a heart beat, invert, smack the ejection rod, speed loader, snap closed, up and fire...2/3 seconds for a reload.

Single action, not so much.

 

[seeker_two]

Frank: The snark is well-deserved by the instructor's actions after the OP left.....

Any way I took the refund and left with out saying much more. My brother stayed in the class and said that after lunch the teacher talked for about 30 min on how a single action revolver should never be considered for self defence.

That kind of ignorance is inexcusable in an instructor. If he doesn't like them, fine. He gets paid to give good knowledge, not ill-formed opinion.

I just feel sorry for the students who DIDN'T get a refund.....

 

[Tom Servo]

I would have liked to hear exactly what he said and how he said it.

Additionally, I'd like to know if he specified acceptable weapon types in the syllabus. Most I know of will brief students on what kind of holsters and how many reloads to bring.

Even if a student were to show up with a weapon that won't work (whether practically or because of the curriculum), most instructors have a lender or two on hand.

Otherwise, booting someone from a class, no matter how politely, could be bad for referrals and future business.

 

[btmj]

As was pointed out by several others, I think the real issue with a SA revolver at a training class is the very slow reloads. It would slow the class down. I know the last time I had my ruger vaquero out, it took quite a while to work through a box of 50... with a double stack auto loader, 50 go by pretty quick.

Regarding the suitability of a SA revolver for self defense... sure it can work, and work well. but you have to be mindful of the limitations, such as very slow reloads... essentially, when the gun is empty, you are out of the fight... there will be no combat reloading. With a SAA this means 5 rounds, with a black hawk or vaquero it means 6 rounds.

But honestly, it does not take that much practice to shoot a SA revolver about as fast and as accurate as a 357 mag DA revolver. I think I shoot my Vaquero about as fast as I do my GP-100. Thumbing the hammer of the SA takes some time, but the SA trigger is so crisp and clean that as soon as the sights are lined up, I can take the shot... with the GP100, the long squeeze of the DA trigger takes some time... overall, I think it balances out.

Having said that, I shoot my glocks and my plain-Jane 1911 quite a bit better than either of those revolvers...

The word "acceptable" does not mean "perfect"... just because a tool is less than perfect does not mean it is not acceptable.

 

[Hiker 1]

Typically I carry a 1911 but because of the cowboy shooting I was doing decided to only bring my cowboy guns.

Do you think maybe you wanted to show off a little and became offended when the instructor didn't play along?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Any way I took the refund and left with out saying much more. My brother stayed in the class and said that after lunch the teacher talked for about 30 min on how a single action revolver should never be considered for self defence.

That kind of ignorance is inexcusable in an instructor. If he doesn't like them, fine. He gets paid to give good knowledge, not ill-formed opinion....

I'll accept that the instructor's opinion was ill formed insofar as he did not understand that a single action revolver could, with the right skill set, be an effective choice for self defense. That also means of course that the instructor was ill equipped to teach that skill set.

I know a number of good instructor who would fall into the later category, and it would be inappropriate for them to attempt to teach it. In fact, they know what they don't know, and would not undertake to teach the use of a single action revolver for self defense.

Personally, I don't expect an instructor to know everything nor to be able to teach everything. I do, however, expect him to know what he doesn't know and conduct himself accordingly.

 

[MarkDozier]

I have to write on this. First off y'all have many opinions and they are interesting.

Those of you who think single actions are no good for self defense are wrong. Those who think the instructor was right not teaching something he don't know are right.

It comes down to the instructor was wrong. He should have kept the student and learned from him. But he should have already known about single actions. He may not have been proficient with single action but he wasted a good chance to increase his knowledge.
Due gets an F+, I hope everyone demanded their money back.