Evaluating gun and loads.

What bullet will shoot well in your rifle is largely determined by the barrel twist.
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I think its just the opposite. Your twist will determine which bullets WON'T shoot well, because they're not properly stabilized.

AND, its a matter of degree and variation between bullet design and twist rate and someone's opinion of "shoots well".

As an illustration, I have a Winchester .22-250 with a 1-14" twist. Shoots 55gr into an inch, 52/53gr match slugs into about 3/4 inch.

Shoots Sierra 63gr semi-spitzers consistently in 2 inch groups. The bullet is supposed to be too heavy for that twist rate, or "marginal". A 2" group isn't good enough for precision varmint sniping, but is good enough for deer. For me, anyway. Someone else might have a different opinion.

Maybe it is "marginal". But, my rifle apparently doesn't know that....:rolleyes:

Other combinations of bullet and barrel will, of course, be different. MOST "play by the rules" but sometimes, you find an exception.
 
You just have to keep in mind that if your hunt is in colder weather than your sight-in was, cooler air being denser air, that which was marginally stable at the sight-in may tumble during the hunt if that isn't at higher enough altitude to compensate. Always best to sight in and check stability under the actual hunting atmospheric conditions. It just isn't always possible. That's why I like to have a "Plan B" load with me.
 
There are some good tips above, esp. that a 3 shot group is not enough data and 50 yards is too close. Here are some things I do:

If comparing 4 loads (a, b, c, d) get 4 really nice separate targets and set them all down range and 10 of each load.

Instead of shooting all a, then all b, then all c.... a proper statistician would make a table of randomly generated letters by throwing a dice (or however you want to generate random numbers) for example: (b,d,c,c,a,d....) now shoot the a loads at the a targets, b loads at b target, in the random order.

Me, I am not that formal: I shoot a,b,c,d,a,b,c,d,a,b,c,d..... so that variables like barrel heat, my fatigue, outside temperature, wind, scope screws rattling loose, anything not related to the load is spread out amongst ALL the competitors. I put a few fouling shots down range so load a isn’t starting with a cold barrel. Pushing patches is either every shot or find a way to have each load equally starting after a patch push.

Immediately after completing my trial, I write down the date, time, range, load data... everything... assuming I might want to refer back to this data in 10 years because it’s a lot of work. I add comments like “mild recoil, I liked it” or “max load and I sure felt it” because if you have a load under max that clearly groups as good as a max load... I’d pick the gentle load every time unless hunting Cape buffalo or the like.

Rather than measure something like outside edge distance (statistically called the range, very susceptible to fliers), or doing a bunch of laborious measurements and running statistical calculations to find the standard deviation of the spread...

Hold two targets up to the sun. Center the group by eye. There are all sorts of patterns to compare, but you’ll see the load that has the most holes forming a clump. The best load will make the tightest clump and I usually consider a few fliers my bad shooting.

When you get it down to a couple loads you can’t really pick between when holding them up to the sun... well, I pick the one that was mildest or used the powder I have the most of or is most common.

To take it farther... that’s when you start shooting one shot at one target, analyzing that data, over many many days at the range and many trials. I’m not that good with a rifle but the guys that are.... impress the heck out of me.
 
You have a 3x9 scope, the objective is probably not adjustable, you need to determine where the parallax was set at the factory because it probably has a good bit at 50yds which means the groups you shot at that range don't mean much.
 
Start by loading a mag full. That'd be 4 in the mag +1 in the chamber with an Axis. It has a 1 in 9 rifling twist. Oh and the shooting techniques with a .22 are the same as they are with any rifle. Breathing, sight picture and trigger control are the same.
You need to start with the Start load of 21.6 of Ram Tac powder, loading 5 and going up by half a grain to the Max load of 24.0.
Keep 'em separate. Shoot slowly and deliberately off a solid rest at 100 yards for group only. And change targets for every load.
"...a 3x9 scope, the objective is probably not..." No more low end crappola on Savage Combo's any more. Assuming it is a combo. Just because it's a 3x9 doesn't mean it has no adjustments though.
 
The low end Axis comes with a 3x9 Bushnell Trophy, no adjustable objective, Parallax is set at 100yds. They say it's 100yds on the website but you would want to confirm that on your scope, inexpensive scopes can be off enough to effect accuracy testing.
 
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270 shots about 10 inches extreme spread at 600 yards.

Which ones were the first 3? First 10?
 
Which were the first 3? Tell us!
Which were the first 10? Tell us!

Assuming some crude statistics, three shots will sort of represent the behavior of 9 theoretical shots and 10 shots tells us that’s sort of what a group of 100 would give. It’s a “squared” thing.

To represent a group of 270 shots, 15 or 16 shots will likely represent the group adequately.
 
Thanks folks!

I do shoot, reload and cast a lot of pistol so the whole idea and theory is not new. Just using a different type of firearm and at a greater distance and yes I am still learning about the science of rifle scopes. Then I first started working up pistol loads I would work in .1gr increments until I learned that was a waste of time and components and that even .2gr many times would not show a significant change.

Since I do not have a chrono I am playing the accuracy node game and not a velocity node. Most I have talked with at the range tell me they can usually find 2 nodes within a load. One a low power and one a high power and at times a third node in the middle if the load spread is great enough from start to max.

I am going to guess that the 22.3gr load as being the low node and the high node is somewhere above the 22.9 gr load that I stoped at. Max is at 24.0gr. so I am well below that. Then seeing that the 22.3gr. and the 22.6gr loads are pretty close I will also guess that the best load is somewhere in-between that. I did shoot all twenty of the 22.9gr load at three separate targets and they did not tighten up.

Sure a 6 shot group is more telling than a 3 shot group but that still doesn't mean a 12 shot group with be twice as telling as a 6 shot group. In my mind a 6 shot group repeated over 6 sessions will be more telling than shooting twenty all at the same time.

Everything works within a mechanical limitation including humans. I am looking at this as an exercise in finding the parameters of this rifle, myself and the ammunition I am using. Since I started this venture I have learned many new things beginning with the reloading process and brass prep. It is much different than what I do with pistols. I have learn a few things that work and things that don't.

I look at this first shooting session as the same sort of exercise. I found that the gun shoot and shoots very well in the hands of a novice. I also found that my reloads all went boom with no mishaps. And now with the convincing from all of you I am ready to move on and out to 100yds and see what happens.

Comment on the components. I also realize that these bullets and this powder may not be the optimum for this gun but it is what was available to get started with. At this time we take what we can get.

Now I just heard from my work and I do not work again until Friday so I am really hoping to get back out tomorrow or Thursday. I wish it was easier to attach pictures as I would post those targets.
 
Something else I just noticed while looking over these targets again and that is that all the shot fired with the factory loads are directly above center of the bullseye and all the shots from my reloads are all below and very slightly right of the bullseye.

All shots were fired with a steady fix on center and no adjustment to the scope.
 
what is your goal kmw1954? If it is to develop decent skills for hunting then you are there. If it is to develop BR or F class skills you still have a long road ahead and lots of holes to punch.

Just a suggestion if you are serious about developing rifle skills. Best training tool for developing rifle skills is the humble .22LR. You don't need a $3K Anshutz, a off the shelf 450 dollar CZ with a $150 scope will do the trick.

A personal story. Before I took up rifles my wife and I both shot IDPA and steel challenge for many years. We were both pretty decent, she was the better of the two of us, until we had to stop because of physical reasons. I figured after pistols rifle would be simple. I was dead wrong. I struggled for several years to get past the sharpshooter classification in NRA F class. Then I put my centerfires in the gun safe and shot .22LR only for five or six months. Three hundred rounds a week or more at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards. I jumped up two classes both in mid and long range within 4 months when I went back to competing with my centerfire. Same gear, same handloads the only difference was practice,practice, practice. Take it for whatever it is worth, or don't. Just some advice
 
Hounddawg, this is for fun and personal satisfaction. Here in SE Wisconsin the population has grown and the open farmland is drying up. Hard to hunt small game when one is surrounded by homes. Use to be abundant rabbit and squirrels to hunt now they are almost domesticated. I actually enjoy the reloading and working up loads. It's one of the reasons after all these years that I took up lead casting. Kinda like building a hot rod to go fast and then just end up cruising. Besides with health problems and crippled up old legs it is near impossible to get out in the woods.

I have no illusions of becoming a world class long distance shooter but I do what to see how far I can go.

During the winter months the range I work has an informal rifle league and I may just see if the big boys will let me play.
 
well if that's your goal then the .22LR will be a valuable tool in the toolbox.That does not mean that you have to put up the .223 altogether, just se the .22LR to work on wind and technique and the .223 to work on reloading skills. The same bench technique will be required for both and the wind will be your biggest enemy. Which brings me to my second suggestion. Make a set of wind flags from some fiberglass driveway poles and boundary tape from the local hardware store. You will surprised at how much that bullet will move around in a 5MPH wind.

good luck and persevere, it will be frustrating at times but try and keep it fun and compete against yourself, not the other shooters
 
fyi, if you've ever been to a benchrest match guys will change their powder settings from day to day and from morning to afternoon because changes in temperature and humidity effect the accuracy of a load.
This can easily be proven by taking your favorite load to the range and shooting it at different times of the day several days in a row, groups will vary in size and shape typically.
Very few hunting rifles/mass produced bullets are capable of consistently producing really small groups. Everyone that has shot and loaded there own ammunition has at least a few targets saved that are really great, almost none of them can reproduce it on demand.
Keep that in mind when your working up loads.
Not trying to be negative just realistic.
 
Thanks to everyone for their time and responses. Somehow though I think we are starting to "Jump the Gun".. I see the truth in these last comments and suggestions but much of that is way beyond where I am presently at.

What I am trying to accomplish is to properly evaluate this gun and the loads I am currently using. I fully understand that in order to get better one needs trigger time and practice. But at the same time one needs to be able to differentiate what is caused by the operator and what it caused by the bullet changes.

I do not have a tool to lock the gun in a vise on a bench to eliminate the gun movement to zero. I have to use bags like most do. That in and of it's self is going to cause inconsistency. I understand that there are many minuet changes that can be made to a round that will change it's behavior. Also w/o a chronograph I cannot evaluate velocity which also will limit my ability.

I guess what is at hand is what I an currently experiencing and how to properly evaluate what I am producing now. For instance I have been convinced by you all that I need to move to a longer distance.
 
I second Houndawg on the .22 and using it at 100 yards for trigger time practice. They don't tend to make a shooter jerk shots or flinch and the low recoil makes it easy to follow the sight movement to see that it isn't being moved left or right or down by your hands. A 10 mph crosswind will move a solid 40-grain high speed 22 LR slug about 5" at 100-yards to give you some wind doping practice. All good stuff.

For the gun you have, here is a plot of the uncertainty from randomness with different number of shots per groupl The green 1.0 line is the true average for an infinite number of rounds. This says about 19 out of 20 group sizes will fall between the red and blue lines, while one in 20 may be outside the lines, on average.

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I guess what is at hand is what I an currently experiencing and how to properly evaluate what I am producing now.
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You can always ask a friend at the range who is a good rifleman to test some loads for you
 
I will do that, there are a couple I feel comfortable asking. Then I can also get feedback on the low quality of the gun compared to what they shoot.

Looking to head out to the range in an hour or so, so I hope to have more to report later today.
 
Just back from the range.

As expected and predicted these groups all opened up though they are consistent in pattern as those from the 50yd shoot. Also the 2 groups that showed the most consistency are the same two as the 50yd target. That being between the 22.3gr load and the 22.6gr load. The 2 lower powered loads were so much larger at both distances that I believe they can be discarded along with the load at 22.9gr which shot horrible even at just 50yds.

Now I will also add that I was shooting today with only a front rest and only my hand as the rear rest.. So I don't think that was very stable and could have been better. Avg. group size is 2moa with one that if I remove the flyer I know I jerked because it is way opposite everything else that group would be 1moa.

All-in-all it is what I expected from both me and the gun and I am sure I can improve. Also reviewing these targets from today I see most of these shots are within 1"/1.25" wide with much more movement in elevation, top to bottom of about 2"

So what would that suggest other than I need lots of practice!
 
make a squeeze bag for the rear, the pulse in your hand will open your groups up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-Q-sRq3Cs

get a few fiberglass driveway marker rods from Home Depot, get some surveyors tape there also. Attach a couple of feet of the tape to each pole and you have cheap and effective wind flags

practice practice and more practice
 
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