Evaluating gun and loads.

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kmw1954

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Help determining shot value of a new to me gun with Factory loads and five handloads.

The gun is a Savage Axis 223 bolt with a 3x9 scope, ammunition is American Eagle 55gr Factory and then I have 5 handloads made with Hornady 55gr SP over Ramshot Tac powder from 21.7 to 22.9gr in 0.3 gr. increments.

Fist off I am not a rifle shooter, this is my first center fire rifle though I have shot 22 rimfire. By no means do I consider myself a rifle shooter.

Today I was finally able to shoot this and was seated at a bench and was using front and rear bags. Targets were set to 50 yards. The factory loads were shot in 3 round groups to try and establish a baseline. 5 Groups ranged from .427" to 1.215", three were in the 1" range and two were under 1" with the second group being the tightest of the lot and the last group the largest.

I then started shooting the reload from lightest to heaviest in six shot groups. In order the sizes measured .912", 1.165", .695", .738" and 2.22" with one dropped shot. I am guessing that the third load is the one I should start with?
 
Unfortunately, for three-shot groups, all those numbers are within statistical variability for 95% confidence as possibly having an entirely random difference. But I would start by pretending they are more certainly representative that. Since the third and fourth are very close to each other, so I would start between them at, say, 22.4. If that doesn't work out, you will need to fire more of each load to get beter clarity on the difference between them.
 
Also trying to determine how much is related to my own inabilities and has nothing to do with the gun or the ammunition's..
 
If you know someone who is a good rifle shot, you can try having them shoot a test string for you to see if there is a different result.
 
Also trying to determine how much is related to my own inabilities and has nothing to do with the gun or the ammunition's..
Click to expand...

Right now the group sizes could either be due to you or the ammo. Eliminate one of the variables to determine which or both needs improvement.

First thing I would do is go out and purchase some commercial ammo of good quality to get a baseline. The Axis has a 1-9 twist so I would stay with 69 gn and under. Get good quality ammo, not bulk. Your rifle should get consistent sub MOA results.

See if you can find something along the line of Lapua target, Hornady Superperformance, Nosler Varmegeddon, and Hornady VMax etc. Shoot some groups using that and see if you can get your handloads to that quality or above.

Once you think you have a decent load then see if you can find a experienced rifle shooter to confirm the load for you. Someone who shoots .5 or better consistently. With decent handloads and a good shot that Axis should get .75 MOA or better consistently.
 
Maybe it was overlooked but the handloads were shot in 6 round groups.

Two things known for certain. I need trigger time and I need to see how these shoot again. Can I repeat what I already have done at 50yds and then what happens at 100yds.

I can also feel pretty confident that by the time I was finishing up I was tired and my eyes were getting tired as well. I at least know that feeling from pistol shooting. So another range trip is in order.
 
You can shoot all the loads at 50 yds if you want to, but this will not really tell you anything unless everything you will shoot will be 50 yds. You can try loading just 3 rds with each of the different powder charges at 100 yds, this will give you an "idea" of a good load, and save you some eye strain since you are new to rifles.

The results of 3rds at different powder charges will give some indication of what the load will do. Pick the best one, and load 3 rds at 1/10grain below and 1/10th grain above the best group powder charger along with 3 more at the "best" powder charge.

Take you time between groups, shoot 3 and rest for a few minutes, repeat. Enjoy the process and think about your rifle technique in between the groups to improve.
 
Yes I was taking time yesterday. Shot 60 rounds in about 2.5hrs.. Magazine only hold 4 as only loading 3 at a time. So when able I will be at my regular range and shoot again at 50 with a few and then move and repeat at 100yds. shooting 6 shot groups at each target.

Most likely not again until next weekend will I be able to shoot again. Right now I have 16 rounds of each of the handloads left. Except for the last load at 22.9gr which I did shoot up as that load seemed to really loosen up.
 
What is the intended main purpose of the rifle? To shoot groups on paper or to shoot things in the real world??

What I mean is that while there is a lot of overlap, there are also differences. For example, if it is intended for shooting varmints, beyond a certain point groups on paper aren't that relevant.

But, if the point is to shoot the smallest groups you can on paper, then different things have importance.

And, always remember that the biggest variable is YOU.

Especially when you are talking about very small groups. Part of shooting small groups is consistent repeatability. Meaning every single thing being as close to exactly the same as possible.

A tiny shift in the rifle's position on the bags, or your "weld" to the stock can have an effect. Or any of dozens of other things, include a puff of wind that can't even see can change things.

How much even tiny differences change things is variable. Shooting on an empty stomach and 3 cups of coffee (or energy drink) can really change things, too.

And, range matters too. Move from 50 out to 100 so nature has more time to blow you around. :D

Then see what kind of results you get. Might not be quite what you expect.
 
AMP 44, Thanks for the perspective direction.

The YOU part is one of the things that has my concern as I am uncertain just what MY capabilities are yet. To the point that at this point I don't know that I can tell the difference between factory or my loads as to which is most accurate. I can't see much difference between the loads I have already shot. Factory or hand load.

For now this is mainly for punching paper and this gun in this caliber was bought with the intention of it being an entry level gun. One I can shoot, build trigger time and experience w/o spending a ton and stepping up from a rimfire.

This year I have been working at an outdoor range as a RO and mostly working the 200/300yd range so I have had plenty of opportunity to talk the the bench shooters and watch what they are doing. I also have no delusion of becoming that good overnight, especially with this gun.

The goal here is to have fun, enjoy the sport and progress somewhat. Intention is to become consistent at 100yd and then moving to 200yd.. To find my limits. Would also like to progress to shooting steel.

My thinking was to start at 50yds. to check the gun and scope and then move to 100yds.. So I guess I have proven the gun to 50 and that maybe it is time to move out to 100 already.
 
which is why I suggested shooting some premium commercial ammo to get a baseline. Having one of the benchrest shooters at that range you are RO'ing doing the shooting would not hurt either
 
I note you are using one powder and one bullet.

That combo may or may not be the best combination for the rifle you are using. What is the barrel twist?
 
ghbucky, Yes I am only using one bullet and one powder to keep things simple. I believe that by trying an assortment of bullets and powders at this point would just confuse things. Remember that I am a novice at rifle shooting,

I am not looking for the most accurate load for the gun I am looking for consistency and the most accurate load for this combination of components. Once I determine that I can use that load to practice with and start the next development as I have some 62gr bullets to also try. Which who knows this gun may not like that bullet either.

hounddawg, one of the very first groups I shot with this had 3 rounds that were all touching each other which says to me that both the gun/ammo/me are capable of this and more is dependent on me than either the gun or the ammo. Also agreed that one of the bench shooters at the range will have much greater success than I expect to at this point. There are a couple I would be comfortable to ask but it would of course have to be arranged and not just a spur of the moment thing.
 
Shooting 3 round groups and 5 round groups is not enough to determine anything. A set of four consecutive or five consecutive 5 round groups will tell you what your combination of rifle, shooter and ammo combination is capable of. I had a couple of instances instances of three rounds touching and one or two instances of five rounds in less than a inch doing twenty shot groups at a 800 yard match this weekend. That does not mean that either my rifle or I are .1 MOA accurate shooters. As others have suggested 10 shot groups minimum will give you a better idea. Twenty round groups will give you a even better idea as far as where your average shot will hit. Good luck with your endeavors
 
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My two cents

I advise you shooting at 100 yards. If there is any variable between loads, it will show better at 100 yards than 50 yards.

The first thing I suggest is drawing a series of crosses on your target for your crosshairs. Fold your target into 1/4ths and draw a black thick line along the crease. Stable your target with the line level with a bubble leveler. This way you know you're not canting your rifle. If you shoot farther, outline another set of colors outside that cross. The colors should be even outside your crosshairs. Don't care about hitting the center. You're looking for groups now. I tend to use dollar store bingo markers to dot every bullet hole shot with the same powder/bullet combo or brand. Then, I leave a dot and write down the reference load. On each dot I write down the MV if I have it.

At the bench, I'm guessing you know how to shoot. Ask a few good shooters at the range or watch Youtube. My advice is take your time. Don't rush the shot. Focus on doing the steps good. Good steps make good habits. Good habits make good results.

It's my opinion at this time that petloads between rifles of similar model and caliber have similar petloads. Do a search and try to find petloads similar to your rifle. Think of it this way. The barrels are the same thickness with the same bore and rifling. The action is similar. So is the stock.. So everything is more consistent. I've done test on my 7RM and 7.7 Arisaka and my petloads are almost identical to the recommended petloads in Ken Waters' Petloads book. Then there is my .357, .38, and .45. I conducted tests independently and came out with the same pet loads as I found online. Just start within the safety margins and work up to the peload you found if that petload is beyond the posted safety margins. Some of us here have been reloading a long time where what we do as a common procedure could be dangerous to a newbie just because of experience.
 
Yep. I missed that the string had 6 shots rather than 3. That improves the liklihood the difference in some of those groups is real. At six shots the 95% confidence limit has the largest random group out of an average 19 shots being 2 times the size of the smallest. Since your largest groiup is over 3 times the diameter of the smallest group, those two are at least 95% likely to be truly different and not just randomly different. The first four are, obviously, different, but the ratio of smallest to largest among them is less than a factor of two, so your confidence that the difference isn't merely random is going to be less than 95%. That doesn't mean it isn't real, but, to my mind, it means the first four are worth refiring to see if the size order stays the same. If it does, then your confidence is pretty high that the difference is real and then I would be back to looking at 22.4 grains as a possible middle of the small range.
 
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