Errant Flight Prompts Capitol Evacuations
- Thread starter Ozzieman
- Start date
novus collectus
Moderator
Alright LAK time for me to repeat myself too because it did not sink in with you . When I balked at the prohibitive expense about building bomb shelters for every building that housed the government, you said that I should do some research of my own and then proffered the "subway" idea suggesting that it is a cheaper alternative. It is not cheaper in D.C. and you still have to do some research.
Where did I say "Russia"? The Soviet system paid for the infrastructure that is still being used today and what is left of the country hasn't had the money to add to it in any substantial way. As a matter of fact, it is probably crumbling. The U.S.S.R. is no longer here today and Russia's economy is now suffering in part because of the expense of the security and safety measures that were built on a scale that you are suggesting for us.
But if we keep the workers and politicians in the building to get to a bomb shelter, then they will be in the vulnerable part of the building for two to three times as long because of the bottle neck effects. They would have to harden the buildings if they use your idea. Unless of course they just evacuated the building like they would in a fire.
One thing I learned about growing up during the last two decades of the cold war was, in a nuclear attack there is no shelter. (at least against the 10 megaton Soviet bombs). Biological attack......yes I can see keeping them in the building if it wasn't a plane that could cause a complete collapse of the capitol dome. Nerve agents.....maybe. Radiological....definitley. But we were talking about the plane and a plane hitting a building is similar to a fire in a building but worse because it has a greater chance of trapping people in the debris and start a fire.
Novus Collectus
The blast - or blasts - are going to take their toll where and how wide as may be; but then an enormous number of people are going to be exposed to the fallout and dead food and supply infrastructure.
Says who? Using an existing underground system makes more sense than the superficial hardening of surface buildings, or building other facilities from scratch. And we are not just talking about DC.
The Soviet system - Russia - superfluous. It is the same industrial and financial powers that have generated the steam since the time of Stalin. The next point crosses over into other subject areas, but suffice to say that regardless of the surface agitation - Russia still has control of some of the largest quantities of natural resources on earth. That includes oil, natural gas, coal, important minerals etc, and not even our technology has caught up with some of theirs - like their deep oil extraction. Russia is still a force to be reckoned with, and isn't going to crumble anytime soon.
That depends on the building - the type of building and it's individaul design and layout. This is a case by case issue and can not be examined as a generalization any more than a fire plan for buildings. Some might benefit from inside access, some otherwise.
This depends on where you are relative to the blast, type of blast and nature of the device. The reports on the number of people that survived the Nagasaki and Hiroshima blasts, the distances involved etc make interesting reading. But we must remember that we might be looking at a few moderate yield strikes coming in on less than ideal delivery systems from a rogue State other than Russia or China; they may not strike a target city or location dead center - or may be a considerable way off.
The blast - or blasts - are going to take their toll where and how wide as may be; but then an enormous number of people are going to be exposed to the fallout and dead food and supply infrastructure.
We are talking about as wide a range of types of attacks as possible; from rogue State nukes on down.
The trouble is, not all of the D.C. Metro is underground. Here's a list of the parts that are: <and a lot of this list is in MD and VA>
The Red Line is underground:
From south of Twinbrook to North of White Flint
From South of White Flint to north of Grosvenor
From halfway between Grosvenor and Medical Center to just northeast of Union Station
For about 500 feet somewhere between Rhode Island Ave. and Brookland
From halfway between Silver Silver Spring and Forest Glen to just north of the end of the line at Glenmont, but before the outdoor railroad carwash.
The Orange Line is underground:
From just west of Ballston to just east of Stadium-Armory-Hospital-Prison (to list everything at that station).
The Blue Line is underground:
For about 1/2 mile west of King St.
For about a mile somewhere between National Airport and Braddock Road
From Crystal City to halfway between the Pentagon and the Cemetery
From just after the cemetery to just after Stadium-Armory
From just before Benning Road to the end (except for the area surrinding and including Addison Road station)
The Yellow Line is underground:
The southern third of the Huntingdon station is buried in a hillside, so it is partly underground
A section just between Eisenhower Ave and King St for about 1/2 mile
From there, same as blue to Pentagon, then still underground for a mile up to the aboveground section over the Potomac River
From just before L'Enfant Plaza to Mount Vernon Sq.
The Green Line is underground:
From Anacostia to inches before the Fort Totten Station
From just after Fort Totten for about 1.5 miles, then under and over to W. Hyattsville, then under and over to PG Plaza, then under and over to College Park, then overground to Greenbelt.
The Red Line is underground:
From south of Twinbrook to North of White Flint
From South of White Flint to north of Grosvenor
From halfway between Grosvenor and Medical Center to just northeast of Union Station
For about 500 feet somewhere between Rhode Island Ave. and Brookland
From halfway between Silver Silver Spring and Forest Glen to just north of the end of the line at Glenmont, but before the outdoor railroad carwash.
The Orange Line is underground:
From just west of Ballston to just east of Stadium-Armory-Hospital-Prison (to list everything at that station).
The Blue Line is underground:
For about 1/2 mile west of King St.
For about a mile somewhere between National Airport and Braddock Road
From Crystal City to halfway between the Pentagon and the Cemetery
From just after the cemetery to just after Stadium-Armory
From just before Benning Road to the end (except for the area surrinding and including Addison Road station)
The Yellow Line is underground:
The southern third of the Huntingdon station is buried in a hillside, so it is partly underground
A section just between Eisenhower Ave and King St for about 1/2 mile
From there, same as blue to Pentagon, then still underground for a mile up to the aboveground section over the Potomac River
From just before L'Enfant Plaza to Mount Vernon Sq.
The Green Line is underground:
From Anacostia to inches before the Fort Totten Station
From just after Fort Totten for about 1.5 miles, then under and over to W. Hyattsville, then under and over to PG Plaza, then under and over to College Park, then overground to Greenbelt.
novus collectus
Moderator
Alright then let me specify. It is more expensive in the part of D.C. where the government mostly operates and that also happens to be close to the river and was origionally built on a swamp and has historic structures easily disturbed and monuments that are at risk of toppling becaus of groundwater present. I put that into a long sentence so that you will take it all into context.
Have you ever wondered why it cost nearly $300,000,000 to build the WWII memorial? It was in a large part because of the unstable ground and a lot of the cost went into making sure that the underground water displacement wouldn't topple the 555' tall Washington Monument. And here you are suggesting that we put a subway underneath it when the shallowly dug WWII monument put it at risk.
It is not really using an existing underground system for this, but it is really making a whole new system from scratch. The system would only be for some of the less likely attacks and would be hard to justify the billions spent recreating the subway system or making 8-10 miles of new underground subway lines. You would also have to shore up the buildings anyway because a tumbling building would hurt the underground system the way the buildingsw are now. Not all of the ground is dirt and some of it is bedrock in places, so there would be more dynamite used on parts of the tunnels and that would harm the buildings during construction. (They have had to use dynamite in the recent past during construction of tunnels in parts of downtown D.C.)
Hell, why were at it we may as well alter the path of the river too and rebuild 1/10 of the city.
Get real. I hated Reagan and even I admit that he won the cold war by making the Soviets spend more than they could afford on defense and an infrastructure that was supposed to protect themselves. Natural resources are one of the very few reasons that Russia is still viable and starting to recover from a near total economic collapse that was caused by the Cold War. If we are not careful, then the war against terrorism will be our Soviet Cold War experience and make us an oppressive state that would have to raise taxes beyond what the economy can afford and make our system not worth living in.
(Btw,when I said that the infrastructure was crumbling, I was referring to the civil defense infrastructure and also their civil defense subway system in Moscow and I seriously doubt that they are putting even a fraction of the money into it now than they did during the Cold War.)
We started talking about the buildings in D.C. and the bigger, more noticable buildings were built before the Cold War and some before WWII. Most of them were not designed to do even close to what you suggest and they would have to be rebuilt from scratch.
Yes the Soviets had very innacurate missiles at the time and that is why they made them 10 megatons and had more than a few aimed at the city (one at the Pentagon, one at the Mall and I think one at AAFB). Even with an air burst, a 10 megaton bomb would make a crater nearly a mile wide and over a 100 feet deep. Duck and cover my a$$. Hiroshima was 1/10 the power and China and North Korea can make hydrogen bombs now that could be as powerful as the Soviet ones. Even terrorists could make a hydrogen bomb if they can make a Uranium bomb (some Lithium isotope or some heavy Hydrogen wrapped around it).
As much as I am fighting you on this, we do agree on some things that I did not repeat. But our approaches and magnitudes of action are where we differ. Unless we spend inhorbitant sums of money protecting us from every concievable scenario, we will have to handle them as they come and use our money on prevention in the meantime (CIA, NSA, invading Afghanistan, bribing N. Korea, bombing Iran's nuke facilities, spending money on making third world countries a bunch of potential consumers that are less likely to support terrorism and buy our friends products, etc.)
But we do agree that more has to be done by govenment and this administration beyond duct tape and plastic sheeting (duct and cover my a$$
).Novus Collectus
The Channel Tunnel - now called the Euro Tunnel - under the English Channel is thirty-one miles long, and cost $21 billion (c.1990).
The idea that the Cold War broke them is somewhat nonsense to me; I know that is the story - but they had nuclear delivery systems both land and sea-based that were sufficient to act as a deterrent and maintain their security even if only a small fraction of them would actually be expected to work. There was no need to bust the bank keeping up with the Jonesies and I am sure they knew it. Realistically all any country needs to have to maintain a real deterrence is about fifty warheads; if just 25% of them actually work, and strike the largest cities in any country - it's game over.
What is happening is that we are being looted. And it is this, and being laid wide open by the policies continued by the current administration, that are going to lead to a shipwreck.
Terrorists might be able to make one; but far easier are electromagnetic devices - dirt cheap, very very low tech and potentially very effective.
Makes you wonder why they are scared to make and use a dozen (or more) of them. Must be that guy with the bad kidneys who has an obsession with doing nothing - especially if it is low tech, cheap, and might bring this country to a standstill - holding them all back.
I am not suggesting buiding a subway where there is not one right now - but that the ones in place or already in planning be used. But underground shelters are probably the way to go. And as an aside, building them under any kind of ground should not be an insurmountable problem. Tunnels under rivers - and parts of oceans for that matter - for road and rail traffic are pretty much old hat.
The Channel Tunnel - now called the Euro Tunnel - under the English Channel is thirty-one miles long, and cost $21 billion (c.1990).
The partial breakdown of the Soviet economy was certainly not connected to them maintaining their subways; and I believe it was more political than economic; the economy suffering as a result of the breakdown in organization.
The idea that the Cold War broke them is somewhat nonsense to me; I know that is the story - but they had nuclear delivery systems both land and sea-based that were sufficient to act as a deterrent and maintain their security even if only a small fraction of them would actually be expected to work. There was no need to bust the bank keeping up with the Jonesies and I am sure they knew it. Realistically all any country needs to have to maintain a real deterrence is about fifty warheads; if just 25% of them actually work, and strike the largest cities in any country - it's game over.
Rubbish; we stop tossing, losing and giving away money at home and overseas. We have plenty - if we clear the debt and stop throwing it away on this. Then there is the interest payments; an $11 trillion+ GDP - and a debt of more than half of that.
What is happening is that we are being looted. And it is this, and being laid wide open by the policies continued by the current administration, that are going to lead to a shipwreck.
We are talking about a civil defense plan - and attempting to afford some measures for as many of our citizens as possible - not preserving historic buildings. If a building can not be hardened then the underground shelter is the way to go.
Right; and who is nursing China's progress? The same people that are giving our money away, tossing it away, or losing it.
Terrorists might be able to make one; but far easier are electromagnetic devices - dirt cheap, very very low tech and potentially very effective.
Makes you wonder why they are scared to make and use a dozen (or more) of them. Must be that guy with the bad kidneys who has an obsession with doing nothing - especially if it is low tech, cheap, and might bring this country to a standstill - holding them all back.
See; all of the above. Especially on money - and threats.
The trouble with building tunnels or shelters in D.C. is that you have to go waaaay down in many places to get to fairly usable stable rock/soil. And then there's the question of pumping the constant leaks when the power goes out during an emergency.
On the subject of tunnel depth, here's a quote from a Post article from a few years ago.
"The 19th Street NW exit at the Dupont Circle Metro station was a pit of frustration this week, a place deep below ground where passengers were taking a heart-pounding hike up one of three broken escalators. Old and young pulled themselves along the rubber handrails, many stopping to catch their breath along the 390-foot climb.
"It feels like the system is falling apart," said Miguel Lopez, a lawyer from Adams-Morgan, when he finally reached the summit and emerged from a clump of commuters whose chests were heaving so, they appeared as if they were scaling Old Rag in Shenandoah National Park."
I suppose they could use slides to get folks down into the tunnels quickly. Actually, a 390-foot slide sounds like fun. The escalators are slow even if they are working.
John
On the subject of tunnel depth, here's a quote from a Post article from a few years ago.
"The 19th Street NW exit at the Dupont Circle Metro station was a pit of frustration this week, a place deep below ground where passengers were taking a heart-pounding hike up one of three broken escalators. Old and young pulled themselves along the rubber handrails, many stopping to catch their breath along the 390-foot climb.
"It feels like the system is falling apart," said Miguel Lopez, a lawyer from Adams-Morgan, when he finally reached the summit and emerged from a clump of commuters whose chests were heaving so, they appeared as if they were scaling Old Rag in Shenandoah National Park."
I suppose they could use slides to get folks down into the tunnels quickly. Actually, a 390-foot slide sounds like fun. The escalators are slow even if they are working.
John
JohnBT,
Anything purpose shelter built to resist earthquakes, nuclear blasts etc needs to be deep in any case.
The chute idea sounds good - but I would imagine that while it works well in evacuating aircraft it might cause problems over much greater distances. Especially when you might have people attempting to bring more than a handful of personal belongings with them. With organized controls "at the gate" perhaps not, but without them things might clog up fast.
"Mam, I'm afraid you can not take that rack of clothing with you - nor that Futon."
Perhaps a mixed system - chutes for the young fit and agile, stairs for the less so, and mechanically operated elevators for the very old, weak, disabled etc.
Anything purpose shelter built to resist earthquakes, nuclear blasts etc needs to be deep in any case.
The chute idea sounds good - but I would imagine that while it works well in evacuating aircraft it might cause problems over much greater distances. Especially when you might have people attempting to bring more than a handful of personal belongings with them. With organized controls "at the gate" perhaps not, but without them things might clog up fast.
"Mam, I'm afraid you can not take that rack of clothing with you - nor that Futon."
Perhaps a mixed system - chutes for the young fit and agile, stairs for the less so, and mechanically operated elevators for the very old, weak, disabled etc.